Projects Aspen/Volare 4-Speed OD behind Early Hemis

Anybody know if an Aspen/Volare 4-speed (technically an A-833 variant with an overdrive gear where 3rd usually is), when mounted in a '48 - '52 Ford F1/2/3, will come up close enough to the stock shifter hole to make it worthwhile to use? How far off do you think it would be?



A late 331 Hemi (without the extended bellhousing, as pictured) will be going into this truck (along with a transmission adapter) and according to the below links this transmission will definitely take the torque.



http://www.autohobbydigest.com/a-4spd.html

http://www.slantsix.org/articles/4-speeds/ODA833fourspeed1.htm

The most intriguing? This one, the 833 OD:
1975 thru 1987 Overdrive 3.09:1 - 1.67:1 - 1:1 - 0.73:1 (Trucks used a 0.71:1 fourth)

The breakdown:
75-79 overdrive A and F bodies (Aspen & Volare)
75-87 overdrive trucks and vans.

I'd been intimidated by the A-833, until I talked to the gentleman at this website: http://www.tbtrans.com/manual_transmission.htm

He gave me a little tidbit about the forward shifter location on the Aspen/Volare variant of the A-833, AND the gear ratios listed above. This, combined with a few discussions with 73RR here on the HAMB about adapting the A-833 to the back of the early Hemi (and the greatly reduced cost of the adapter to do so versus other adapters) has about got me sold.

I have but to confirm just how far forward the shifter is on one of these F-Body 833ODs is before making my final choice.

This leads me to my question: Is anybody running one of the 833 ODs with an F-body forward shift location? How far back from where the bellhousing bolts up is is the shifter?

Any and all help is appreciated.

~Jason

This sounded like something to keep in mind when looking for one as well: http://www.slantsix.org/articles/4-speeds/ODA833fourspeed1.htm


Truck Overdrive four speeds: Don't get sidetracked!

"There were two types of four speeds installed in trucks in the late seventies and early eighties. One was the A-833 overdrive four speed which is basically a passenger car 833 four speed and shifts like one. The other four speed was the A-435 which is a huge truck four speed that shifts like a truck, it has a truck non-syncronized "granny low" first gear. The A-435 requires a huge cast iron bell housing and a 143 tooth flywheel. The combo of the bell housing and the A-435 wouldn't fit in an A-body unless you hacked the firewall and the trans tunnel to pieces, and of course the shift knob of a A-435 would probably bang into the rear view mirror on an A-body! Once you are familiar with identifying A-833s, there is no way you'd confuse the two transmissions (the A-435 is a top loader), however it is good to know that there were multiple four speed types installed in the trucks to hopefully prevent a drive halfway across the state to a junkyard that has the wrong truck four speed (call ahead and ask questions!)."

 

Another interesting tidbit from:
http://www.slantsix.org/articles/4-speeds/ODA833fourspeed1.htm

"Chrysler engineers decided that Hemis required a beefier input shaft so the standard 23-spline shaft was replaced with a beefier 18-spline unit and a larger input bearing was used to accept the additional torque. Later Chrysler decided that the high performance 440s needed this beefiness as well. It is one of a few aspects that set the "Hemi" four speeds apart from the standard 4.35" A-833s as being extra beefy. As far as strength is concerned, outside of the input shaft, the input bearing, the retainer and some special gear sets, there were no additional measures added to A-833s for Hemis. In the Sixties the only other difference between a Hemi A-833 and a Slant Six A-833 were the gear ratios used. The Slant Six 4-speed is just as beefy as the Street "Max Wedge" V-8 units."

 

If you do not get a hit on this yet today, I'll measure one tomorrow.

And yeah, these are tough transmissions. They have been ignored since day one by everybody except the Mopar group. Thanks everyone, cause now we still have plenty.

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Hopefully, because of conversations with you and this guy:
http://www.tbtrans.com/manual_transmission.htm

The 833OD will get a little respect around here - especially with the Hemi crowd.

As posted above, your Small Block Mopar adapter kit for the 833 is probably the best/cheapest way I've ever seen to get a transmission of any kind (other than an OEM push-button TF 727 from a '57 - '62 318 Poly) behind a Hemi, period.

~Jason

 

Passon Performance specializes in these transmissions. Check their website to get a lot of answers about them.

-Brad

 

Jamie Passon?

From here? http://www.passonperformance.com/

Maybe I should chat 'em up later... especially about the 18 spline Hemi mainshaft version of the 833OD: http://www.passonperformance.com/NewProducts/Passon Overdrive Flyer.pdf

The gearing is way nicer!

~Jason

 

Jason, I took a quick look at the passon site but did not see any info relative to the shifter mount location, so here is the short story;
There are three (3) tail shafts, one short and two long. From my supply, the short units all have the shifter mount in the same location; 19½" from the front (overall trans length is about 23"), the long tail can have either one or two mounting pads, the rear most pad is 24" from the front and the overall length is about 27"

Somewhere in a paper file I have shetches of the trans and probably some gearing info, when I find it I'll post it.

Gary

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Thanks Gary - you rock!

I think this transmission may solve a lot of my issues - especially there-geared 18-spline OD.

~Jason

 

I don't have the dimensions but I've been running a cast iron case A833 OD behind my 354 since I've had the coupe running. Been trying to break it the whole time to no avail. ;-)

 

Please don't kill me... but... have you considered a Toyota R154 5 speed from an 88-93 Supra Turbo? It's pretty tough and can be made to work with the Hemi adapter plate.

Greg

 

From what I've heard, if you can't break it, it can't be broke!

Without getting too much into actual dimensions, do you know if the shifter-to-engine length is more or less than an S-10?

When it stops raining, I'll have to take some measurements... although the length of this Hemi is like 2" different from the original 8RT that it's replacing, being mounted as close to it's original location as possible. So if folks wanted to pretend that I was mating the original flatty to an A-833, the dimensions would be nearly identical for all intents and purposes.

According to: http://www.carnut.com/specs/engdim.html

The Hemi is 2" longer, 2" taller, and 3" wider than the original flatty, to be precise.

This is the main thing I'm having to contend with at the moment, and why I need the dimensions:



Only mine is OEM, and I'd like to come as close as I can to the OEM cut-out, as does everybody with one of these, I'd expect.

Measure a million times, cut once.

~Jason

 

I haven't, but that's an awesome idea, too!

The problem though, is that I've been having a time finding a transmission that has the shift location as far forward as it can get. That, and the torque. And although that transmission is used in some Isuzu trucks, there's a bad side to it... especially in high torque applications:
http://www.turbosupras.com/pages/pages/technical/R154.htm

I'm afraid the Hemi would eat it for breakfast and spit out the guts the first time I tried to tow anything.

~Jason

 

OK. Then the selection might be an AX15 out of a 94-00 2WD Dodge Dakota pickup. The 3.9 V6 bellhousing uses the same Mopar Small Block pattern but uses an 11" flywheel.





Just throwing that out there.

Greg

 

I have one in my '56 F100... the forward shift location is perfect... several guys here have used this trans behind an early Hemi... the first gear is pretty steep BUT I got two transmission on the cheap and I can live with that gear.

The six cyl. trans is supposed to have a more fragilegear... we'll find out this summer (I hope).

I have a 3.54 MOPAR corporate rear in my truck... narrowed 11".

 

But the shifter's too far back.

~Jason

 

I am helping my pal Mike do this exact deal right now. He has a Volare trans and shifter and a 331 hemi (41 WIllys ) I made an adapter for the trans out of 3/4 inch aluminum stock as that was the difference. We found an original bellousing and flywheeel and bought a clutch to fit. Mike took off for the Gatornationals today but is only going for a week. Then we will be back at it, but there is someone who makes adapters right on Hamb here which would be even easier. He was on before last time the subject came up. Shifter location? You can put it anywhere you want. It doesnt have to be in the stock location. Could be ahead or behind 2 to 4 inches I would think with a simple adapter plate from flat steel and shorten or lengthen the arms. Inn a truck you could just have a long shifter cause it would look right.
Don

 

Was the bell you got a stock early Hemi one, or a small block Mopar?

I actually talked to Jamie Passon today - he'd also filled me in on changing the shifter location - something I'm not used to, having only dealt with toploaders until now.

Is the guy that makes the adapters you mentioned 73RR?

Glad you chimed in, Don. It's nice to have your opinion! I guess other folks are watching this thread to see whatever happens with this. Hopefully, this will demystify the mating of this transmission to the early Hemi.

~Jason

 

That's the exact info I was needing! I knew you had a Hemi, but had no clue you were also running an A-833!

~Jason

 

If ya need, I have an aluminum smallblock bellhousing. They are getting a little hard to find from what I understand. The f-body 833 use to live behind my 400hp-4000rpm leaves on slicks in a 3600 pound car, while big u-joints were turned into powder.

 

That rocks! This gives me a lot of faith in the 833!

PM sent!

~Jason

 

For everyone looking on and wondering what is available, "what can I do with my 241-276-331"... or whatever engine you have, and you want to use a 5-speed behind, some of the smaller 'import-type' boxes may be of use for the some of the lower torque Hemi engines.
Greg55_99 was kind enough to provide a link to an off road site of which he is held in high esteem. This guy knows his stuff, his fng label here is a mis-nomer.
http://www.jeeps-offroad.com/f41/eng...housings-4740/

Be prepared for some indepth reading!

Greg, Thanks Again!!

Gary

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I got this bell the other night. Here's my message to 73rr and his comments.



Here's my message:

I bought the bullet and bought the damned bellhousing off Craigslist. It came with a fork, and I think I made a decent purchase.

It's in the dishwasher... don't tell anybody. I'll send pics when it's out!

Also, I heard that an automatic transmission spacer from an old Imperial will bolt to this bell, and that the spacer will bolt to the Hemi, negating the need for an adapter. A 6-cylinder flywheel and pilot bearing later (the IND56 is pre-drilled) and I'm set.

~Jason

And 73RR's reply:

...remind me to not eat off of your dishes...lol

OK, a couple of thoughts in no particular order. The bell in the pic is a van/pick-up part, and it does not have the correct bolt pattern for the A-833. It is correct for the truck 4-speed and a non-833 version of a 3-speed. Note that there are 2 bolt patterns. You can compare the bolt patterns to the pic of the trans on the Passon site. I have several of these but have not checked the bearing retainer size. Proper bolt holes can be located by piling up some weld material where needed and redrilling.
OEM starter mounting plates/adapter.
Yes, the factory parts manual calls this item an 'adapter'. It adapts the early PF and TF bells to the block. It was available in 3 different thicknesses, approximate ½", 7/8" and the 1957-58 version at 1-1/8". All three aline correctly to all of the early blocks (except the extended bell 331) including pre 62 A engines. There are 4 common bolt locations between the early blocks and post 63 blocks. The locating dowels are off by about 1½" on each side. The shape of the plates casting (all 3 varities) does not provide adequate material to allow for moving the dowels unless a solid plug or a pile of weld material is placed where each dowel needs to be. Could a late bell mounted to a modified plate then be used with an early starter and matching early flywheel? Maybe, but not likely due in part to the large flywheel diameter that probably will not fit inside of the newer bellhousing. It has been awhile, like 20 years, since I actually looked at this particular issue so as a refresher I will lay out some of the pieces a bit later and take some notes.
Side note on early flywheels; all share the same mounting design to the crank flange, but the number of attaching bolts varied not only by year but by application. You will find 'wheels with 4, 6, and 8 bolts, and fortunately, all are part of the same pattern. Now consider that there are several ring gear tooth counts and the starter needs to match the ring. It is also interesting to note that the actual location of the starter, in the original mounting plate, also varies 'just a little bit' between years, I suspect due to the different pinion gear diameters. Ok, one more item, keep in mind the 6-volt vs 12-volt issue.
Now, if by chance the 'wheel and starter actually fit inside of the late bell the other consideration is whether or not the splines on the input shaft will make proper engagement with the disc. Although there is some flexibility in this area full spline engagement should be the goal. If the end of the input shaft then does not land in the crank a bearing can be installed in the centre of the flywheel.
All of the later v8 engines (LA-B-RB) share the same dimension from the face of the block to the face of the crank flange at 0.625". This is the 'magic' number that all adapters strive to duplicate and it is very important as far as the Torqueflight is concerned, and perhaps only a little less so for the manuals. My adapter parts, for example measure 0.700" for the block plate and 0.070" for the crank flange adapter for a difference of 0.63". We have experimented with differing dimensions but these are current numbers. The thicker the block plate is then the thicker the crank flange adapter needs to be. If you used the late starter plate, 1-1/8", with an oem flywheel mounted direct to the crank then the spline engagement would shift (1.125" - 0.625" = ) ½".
With a late bellhousing mounted to a proper block adapter, and with a late (130 tooth) flywheel mounted to the crank with a proper flange adapter then a late starter fits in the bell and engages the 'wheel and, as a side benefit, you have easily obtained replacement parts.

On a historical note, adapter bell housings made in the 50's and 60's relied on the stock starter, matching mounting plate and matching flywheel. Most often they specified the 1957-58 parts so that a 12volt starter could be used. The manufacturers simply cast a housing similar in design to the removeable auto trans bellhousing, but with a manual trans bolt pattern.
If you desired, you could modify one of the auto trans bells by welding on a plate and machining for the correct bearing retainer diameter and bolt pattern, all set up, of course, to match the input shaft length. You could use virtually any trans if you go this route.

So, what have I missed??

Gary

Since I have little interest in typing all of this again, you may decide to include some/all in your current thread.

 

As much as I'm wanting that o833 OD, that $200, ready-to-rock NP435 on Craigslist is starting to look pretty sweet. But I'm holding out for the OD - the first road trip I take, it'll be so worth it,

~Jason

 

I'll throw in some more info since I've been a hardcore mopar man for many years.

The A833 and A833OD trannies have three different mounting locations.

The 65-74 A833 (true 4 speed) had 3 locations.

One for A-bodies (darts, demons, 65-69 barracuda) this was a mid location with a short tailshaft.

Next was the B-bodies from 65-70 (chargers, roadrunnes, satellites, gtx etc) this was a long tailshaft with the mounting location right up close the the main body.

And lastly was the 70-74 B/E body cars (e-body-cuda, challengers and B-body roadrunner, satellite, charger, etc) this was the long tailshaft again but with a mounting location almost at the rear of the tailshaft.

In a B/E body cars the tailshaft could be either a single mount or a dual mount tailshaft. Both locations were tapped and threaded.

Now the A833OD trannies still used these same tailshaft configurations but there application was a bit different. These trannies were used from 75-87 in trucks, vans, and cars.

The volaries/aspens or F-bodies ran the short tailshaft with the mount mid way down the tailshaft.

The trucks and vans usually used the long tailshaft but these had the dual mounting pads, the close b-body and the rear most e-body style. On these later dual style tailshafts you are more then likely to find only one of the set of mounting bosses tapped and threaded.

The bearing retainer diameter on the front of the trannies are different as well. The A833 had a 4.345 diameter bearing retainer on the A-body trannies. The B/E bodies got a 4.805 bearing retainer. The later A833OD all got a 5.125? or was it 5.25? anyway it was over 5 inches.

So you willneed to be aware of this and use the appropriate bellhousing.

Hope this helps.

 

The A833 O/D bearing retainer is 5.125. You don't absolutely have to have the right bell. Adapters can be for the register are easy. The bell I use has the right diameter for the bearing retainer to register but, as noted, has the wrong bolt pattern. I made an adapter plate to change the bolt pattern and it works great. I'll find a pic tonight.

 

Here's the adapter.

 

there were at least 3 maybe 4 different bearing retainer diameters. Also keep in mind the light duty GMC and Chevy 6 cylinder equipped pickups and vans also used these tranmissions. One more site to check is PowerGiant. Fellow had one mounted behind a flat 6 in a mopar cab and chassis with a utility body on it.

 

Kids were sick today, and I was off work. They were getting over it and wanted to get out a bit, so we took a small road trip and picked these two transmissions, garage-stored and likely from trucks, for $150.

Can anybody further help define what these came out of?

They turn, and are cast iron, which may be more up my alley in a truck situation.

At the very least, I may be able to trade 'em for something at that price, or make two out of one... it's not the shift location I wanted, but still, I can always get a tailshaft somewhere.

Not bad, huh?

~Jason

 

Jason, maybe its time to take a fresh look at what you are trying to accomplish. If I understand correctly, your main concern is being able to cruise safely on the freeway as well as getting around town in ok fashion. The Hemi will run all day long at 2500 rpm and certainly will run up to 5000 even in stock form if needed, so rather than go into a math session, there are a number of web sites that will help you with making some choices regarding gear ratios. This one is pretty user friendly:
http://ctny.audiworld.com/mark/s4/gears/gear_calc.html
1). You know what the usable rpm range of the engine is 2). You know what the gear ratios of the np435 (or A-833, with and w/o OD) are and, 3). You know, or can make a reasonable guess about, the tire size so you can plug these numbers into the 'calculator' and determine a final ratio that works for your truck. You can also work from other angles; plug in a final gear ratio and see if a particular tire will get you what you need, etc. This also allows you to look at the engine rpm vs vehicle speed vs gear ratio (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th) and determine if the chosen final ratio is adequate for 'cruzing' around town or through the fairgrounds.


Gary
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This matches what's in my mind's eye as to what these looked like, if they existed!

~Jason