What's difference between GM & Ford toploaders

Like the ***le says, I'm looking to find out the main differences between a GM and Ford Toploader 4 speed.

Reason I ask is that I know a guy that has one for sale, but it came out of a Camaro.

Are the bellhousing bolt holes the same?

What about the input shaft? I ***ume it will need to be trimmed down a bit in a lathe...

OR, should I just stick with the Ford Toploader (which I am still trying to find)?

I'm putting it behind a 292 Mercury Y-block, P***enger Car
So far, no bellhousing, but I will get one soon, and it too will be of the car variety.

The combo is going in my 32 roadster.


ANYONE have a good toploader for sale?

Thanks once again. JL

 

GM muscle car 4 speeds have a side cover,Fords have a removable top cover.

 

Never seen a GM Top Loader

 

It must be laying on its side.....

 

I've never heard of a GM top loader. Unless the seller is referring to a T5 trans from a later Camaro, all I've ever seen is Muncie 4 speeds in GM cars.

 

As far as I understand. EVERYTHING.
Doc.

 

If you're talking about the early GM 3 speed ******s [photo is a 6 bolt olds "select-a-shift" ****** from a 1960 Olds]...they're like boys and girls...totally different.
But...........I seem to remember a strike at GM or a fire where they did source some top loaders from ford for the mid/late 60s GM cars. I believe GM drilled their bellhousings for the ford.......nah, I don't remember what the hell they did to fit them..

 

Anyways,if it's a GM car 4 speed,cast iron is a Saginaw,aluminum case a Muncie.The Muncie is stronger and much more expensive.Saginaw is adequate for 300 hp probably.
The Ford top loader is a very robust ******,maybe more so the Muncie.
All the above ******s are made with several different gear ratio sets,so know what you are looking at.

 

I think GM only used 3 speeds from Ford and I think they were only used in Olds and Pontiacs but I could be wrong.

 

Boy i could be off on this one, but didn't gm have a top load truck transmission that was 3+1 granny gear = 4 speed ?

 

that is exactly what I was told.

I now feel that much more stupid, and lost, but, that is why I posted this. I hate to buy something and not be able to use it, which happens to be in this case.

Ford toploader it is. Thanks.

 

Creeper gear! You gonna pull stumps with that motor? Just find a Ford trans.

Bell housing patterns are different at the very least. Just gets better and better from there.

 

Yeah, but that wouldn't have come out of a camaro...unless.........nah

 

GM's first four speed was a Borg Warner T-10. Some iron case, some aluminum case. Later they used a Super T-10...aluminum case. All T-10's were side shifters like the Muncie.

 

used them in Buicks to...

 

"It came out of a camaro" and "oem supplied from a camaro" are two different things now a days Nah....well who knows?





AUSSIE 4-SPEED, TOPLOADER, MUNCIE, GM -T10/SUPER T10
With the enthusiast in mind, these Centre Tunnel Mount Shifters are manufactured with the same quality that has been built into every shifter produced over the last thirty years.

With the popularity of engine and gear box swaps ever increasing, these shifters are made to fit a specific gear box, thus allowing for a mul***ude of applications.

All part numbers come complete with all hardware, custom gear knob. A gear boot is not included.

 

Sorry for the wide pic

ford "top loaders" are side case shift

 

In '69 I bought a new Pontiac Firebird with the 250 inch SOHC six. The thee speed full syncro transmission had FoMoCo clearly cast onto the case.

 

Different spline count anyways....even if GM did have a top loader.

 

back in the 60's when you orderd a olds pont or buick, on the option sheet the H D sinco. 3 speed trans was a ford top loader!!! they call them at the very least .........
deerborn transmisions. I've asked around, and it's still a mistery to me about input shaft, pilot bearing, clutch ect. soooo......a top loader 4 speed should bolt up to my olds cutl***??????

 

Only if you have a three speed bell housing. I have owned and repaired a few of these. They have the standard Ford Bolt pattern on the front, but the Bellhousing pilot on the bearing retainer is smaller, along with the throwout bearing sleeve. And the trans used by GM had a GM type input shaft so they could use standard clutches, throwout bearings, and pilot bearings. To make a 4 speed toploader fit, you have to turn down the bearing retainer to the GM size, turn down and shorten the throwout bearing sleeve, bore out the pilot bearing to fit the Ford shaft, and use a Ford clutch disc.

The top load granny 4 speeds used in trucks were made by Muncie, and interchange no parts with Ford transmissions.

 

If you want I have a non used (new) Transdapt conversion bellhousing to mount a GM /Chev Muncie or BW T-10 Trans to a Y-block. I've got it on the parts for sale. $200

I'm using Ford toploaders on my FE's -- got rid of the Y-blocks 6 years ago.

PM me if you are interested

Movin/on

 

Dad had a '68 Checker that had a Chevy 6 and Ford 3 speed trans. The bell housing accepted the Ford trans pattern. Dad couldn't find a GM trans that would work when some damn kid in the family broke it We found a Ford trans would work from a Fairlane.

 

The first few years or so of the olds 442 used the ford toploaders because gm didnt have a readily availiable transmission that would hold up to the torque monster 400 rockets.

 

I call ******** on this. I worked at an Olds dealer in 64 65, and 442s had Muncie 4 speeds like every GM car did.

 

TOPLOADER HISTORY (LIFTED FROM: http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/toploaderhistory.htm)
The Ford Toploader Transmission was introduced in 1964 to replace the Borg Warner T-10. This is the super-tough transmission built by Ford Engineers to stand up to just about anything demanded from it.
Internal parts of the Toploader are ***embled through the top of the case instead of through a side cover, thus the name "Toploader." This design is actually stronger than a 4-speed box with a side cover. The shifter rails are mounted in bosses that are cast into the box itself, leaving the only function for the top cover to keep the lube inside.
The Toploader 4-speed transmission is of the fully synchronized type with all gears except the reverse sliding gear being in constant mesh. All forward-speed changes are accomplished with synchronizer sleeves instead of sliding gears. The synchronizers will enable quicker shifts, greatly reduce gear clash, and permit down-shifting into any forward-speed gear while the car is moving. All forward-speed gears in the transmission are the helical-type; however, the reverse sliding gear and the exterior of the first and second-speed synchronizer sleeve are spur-type gears.
The Toploader was used in production from 1964 to 1973 in almost every model Ford car and a few foreign cars.
A 1-1/16" input shaft was used in motors from the 200 c.i. to the 390 c.i. while the 427, 428 and 429 were available only with close ratio gears. The 1-1/16" input transmissions are available in both close and wide gear ratios.
The gear box was built in 3 case lengths. The 1964-65 Fairlane, T.V.R., Griffith, and Sunbeam Tiger case is 25-1/2" long. The AC Cobra with 427 and 428, all Mustangs, Falcons, Mavericks, Cougars, 1966-67 Fairlanes and Comets use 24 " transmissions, while all full size cars and the 428, 429 Cyclone and Torino use the 27" box. The 1964 Toploader used a small 4 hole maincase with the small O.D. bearing retainer. All 1965-73 cases were wide 8 hole cases with the large O.D. bearing retainer.
In 1964 and early 1965 a few transmissions used a 25 spline output shaft which proved to be defective. These were quickly dropped from production. Normally all motors 200 c.i. to 390 c.i. use the 28 spline output shaft. All 427, 428 and 429 motors use the 31 spline output shaft. There are a few exceptions to the above information. The toploader was produced in 133 different models.

 

Ford uses 1 1/16" x 10 input shaft, GM 1 1/8" x 10 input shafts on the Sag & Muncie transmissions.

 

For what it's worth, "top load" has nothing to do with the shifter. As evidenced by the excellent picture of the ford musclecar toploader, they have the removeable cover on the top. It's not a side cover. The guts load from the top. Hence the term, top loader.

No matter what kind of shifter, muncie and saginaw car 4 speeds are side loaders.

Many people call anything with an internal rail shifter a toploader. I think that's what happened here. Ironic given that the original ford toploader has external shift arms.

 

Go with a Ford top loader, I ran an Aussie 4 speed from an XY GT behind a 496hp 351 with no problems. Get yourself a single plate 11 inch Ford clutch and drill flywheel and bell housing for it all to fit up. No problems, these ****ers are bullet proof. Hell if they can survive a 7 hour flogging around Bathurst in a huge XB Falcon your not going to kill one soon.
Doc.

 

He may be talking about the Ford toploader 3 speeds. After the first GTOs ground the Muncie non-synchro low gear Chevy style three speeds into powder in '64, Pontiac went with the "Dearborn" transmissions for their 3 speed goats starting in '65, as did the Buick GS. Years ago, I found a '65 401 and factory Ford style 3 speed lying on the ground in an old junkyard, and the cast iron factory bell housing had both GM and Ford bolt patterns for the transmissions.