Misprint? in the Tardell- Bishop book. HELP!

I have went over this several times and it just doesn't seem right. On page 26-27 in reguards to the front motor mounts they say to place them 3 inches behind the radiator mounting holes in the front cross member. This just won't work. I have measured and remeasured and it looks to me like you need 6 1/2-7 inches to keep the fan from hitting the radiator. And even if my 53 engine was different than their earlier one, the picture they show looks to be about 7 inches too. No way it is 3". Has anybody else ran into this? I am trying to get my engine mounted without having a radiator in my possesion. A model A restorer went over it all with me last night and came to the same conclusion.

By the way this is a great book but seriously ****py binding. I have only looked in it a couple dozen times and it is all falling apart.

 

***uming you're doing a Model A ch***i/Flathead V8 conversion.

If you have all the parts make a big mock up out of it.
Start at the front cross member,attach the spring, connect the spring to the axle/wishbone/K-member/gearbox/engine/waterpumps.

The motor mount holes in the water pumps are now where your motor mouts in the ch***i needs to be.

The only variables in the equation is what wishbones and waterpumps you use, All other measurements are fixed.

 

I have noticed the same. In my RPU project i placed the mounts 5 1/2 inches from the radiator mount holes and it seems to work out fine.

 

If I was working in a real shop all this would be easy.Un fortunately right now I am temporarily working on my lawn. In order to lift the engine I have to borrow my brothers bobcat, plus as I mentioned I don't actually have a radiator yet to know exactly where it goes. I was just going to temp in some front mounts so I could set the engine and start figuring out the firewall, pedals , steering ect. And it would be nice to have the engine mounts where they belong first if possible. And I do have the spring and axle in, less the 'bones, but I fail to see what that has to do with the engine placement.

 

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And I do have the spring and axle in, less the 'bones, but I fail to see what that has to do with the engine placement.

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Great ideas have always met violent opposition from mediocre minds. Albert Einstien


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You said it, not me

The front crossmember is already in the model A frame, right? This means that the position of the spring and axel is already set, fixed, nothing to worry about.

To the front axle you attach the wishbone, which has different lengths depending on if you use '32 or '34.

The ball at rear of the wishbone connects to the '32 K-member, so the wishbone length dictates where you attach the K-member to your model A frame.

The K-member is also the rear mounting for the gearbox.

The gearbox and motor length is also out of you control. They are what they are.

So your combination parts automatically sets where your front brackets needs to be. Do it another way and you'll likely need to cut stuff later.

If you cannot lift the engine do it the other way.
Connect to your loose engine the gearbox/k-member/wishbone/axle/spring.

You can now measure the distance between the spring center bolt and the holes in your water pumps.

/Mikael

 

[ QUOTE ]
***uming you're doing a Model A ch***i/Flathead V8 conversion.

If you have all the parts make a big mock up out of it.
Start at the front cross member,attach the spring, connect the spring to the axle/wishbone/K-member/gearbox/engine/waterpumps.

The motor mount holes in the water pumps are now where your motor mouts in the ch***i needs to be.

The only variables in the equation is what wishbones and waterpumps you use, All other measurements are fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]


Actually you did say it. All I really wanted to know was if anyone else could confirm or deny the information in the book as correct and you went into all this talk about the spring and axle and k member. Non of that is relavant right now as I am using a 49 motor with o/d ****** and will be running split bones. I just want to get my front mounts in the right place in relation to the stock mounted radiator.. Every thing else will go where it fits after that.

 

Check out my post. There`s pics of my engine swap.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=490040&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1l
I hope it helps.

 

what I referred to was that I thought I had a great idea which met your violent opposition...

And yes, if you're splitting the bones my equation goes out the window. Since you referred to the Bishop I thought you weren't, sorry. I just seen it happen that people start the at the wrong end when using an unsplit wishbone and realise later their bones are the wrong length.

 

if your trying to use a late motor with the orig. fan of course its gonna be differnt....

if you guys want to treat that book as gospel use the same exact parts they did... otherwise your on your own ....

 

Maybe if norwegianv8 sees this,he can go out in his garage and measure. He has a frame newly built after the bishop book,but used a flathead to mock it up.

HEY NORWEGIAN V8, WAKE UP!!!

 

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if your trying to use a late motor with the orig. fan of course its gonna be differnt....

if you guys want to treat that book as gospel use the same exact parts they did... otherwise your on your own ....



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Thamks for the first bit of advice, this is my first time building anything like this and that was part of what I wan't sure of. The "of course" part of the reply would seem to ***ume I should have already known this, I didn't.

I really am not treating the book as gospel, very little of it actually applys to my build. I just thought I could get some ideas from it. Look at the illustration of the motor mount installed and then go to a stock frame with a tape measure and you will see that it is physically impossible to place the mount on a 3 inch center with the radiator mount hole unless you carved into the cross member for the motor mount to get that close to the aforementioned reference hole.At least on my 1930 frame anyway. Gospel? Hardly

 

Check out the tech o matic and my brother's post on how we set up my car. You can kind of eyeball the measurement but if I remember it was 6 3/4 or 6 5/8 (don't quote me on this) And to think I was in charge of measuring and setting up and Sam was the welding fool However, the reason the measurements are the way they are is due to the wishbone, k-member combo. Unless you have the 32 k-member and 33-34 wishbone all those measurements can be thrown out the window. I do see what you're trying to do getting the radiator and fan all set up. If I were doing it your way, I would bolt the radiator in and position the engine where you want it relative to the radiator (sounds like you have a complete engine with a fan if you're using a bobcat to move it)

 

show us pictures of your mockup jb

 

It says in the book...

The finished mounts are set into the rails with their FORWARD EDGE 3in back from the radiator mounting hole in the front crossmember.

The radiator mounting hole in the pic in the book is in a completely different spot to where you're measuring from.

Hang on... I just looked at another pic from a different angle... Which hole IS the radiator mounting hole???

You're right, it's a bit unclear. I'm sure AV8 will be around soon to clarify it.

 

BTW... Tardel is spelt with one "L".

 

I thought there were different radiator mounting points from 28-31, not all A frames are the same. I think it even says that in the book.

As far as the binding is concerned, put a little line of elmers glue on the edge of the page and stick it back in.

 

Don't know if this helps, but I installed my mounts as the book describes, the leading edge of the mount 3" back from the center of the radiator mounting hole. I'm using a '40 flathead with short water pumps. If you're using a '49 -'53 flathead, you need to move the mounts 1 1/2" farther back to compensate for the longer water pump shaft. Once you get the mounts set, install your motor and ******. Then install the k-member so the rear mount lines up with the ****** mount. You WILL have to use different wishbones or split them though, since you've moved everything 1 1/2" further rearward from the axle centerline.

 

You did the proper thing by measuring. I didn't and had to cut out my mounts and move them back. The book is definitely wrong. Everybody makes mistakes, and the book is still a great work.

 

Alright, I've never built an A-V8, but I've done my share of engine swaps. Since you're not marrying yourself to the K-member/wishbone dimensions, why wouldn't you use the firewall as a point of reference?

In almost every swap I've ever done I have to figure out if the engine will fit between the firewall & the radiator as one of the first steps - what I do next & how I fab my mounts is driven largely by that...

I'm not saying everything relies on the firewall, but it's obviously a major factor...

 

[ QUOTE ]
if your trying to use a late motor with the orig. fan of course its gonna be differnt....

if you guys want to treat that book as gospel use the same exact parts they did... otherwise your on your own ....



[/ QUOTE ] what i meant was you need to gather all the parts you are going to use on your car and mock it up to those specific parts , you are not using street rod parts where everything is the same 1 year differnt and there can be lots of changes...

do some reaserch on the fan setup try to use a fan off the generator if you use that otherstuff it pushes the motor way back and makes tings look a little funny plus you have to cut the **** out of the firewall

 

W-Billy You are rite Tardel is wrong. Sand man built a 29 A roadster with a 40 ford V8 using the book and had to move his motor mounts. I belive he used 5 3/4". I used Sandmans dimensions and then had a 51 Merc dropped in my lap so I had to ching My mounts. then I switched to truck water pumps so I need to change them again. I think I'm not going to use motor mounts! pogo

 

Thanks for all the help guys. I am alittle ashamed to admit that I misread the measurement as being center to center on the holes, which would actually be the more accurate dismension and the more common way to express a hole to hole indexing. As usual when something doesn't seem right it is usually me, that is why I asked.
I was really trying to get ahead of myself and get the motor mounted without having a radiator so I could forge ahead on mounting pedals, steering column and working on the firewall. I guess it will be best to wait. Also I am using the 49 o/d ****** so my rear mount is like 4 feet back from the front ones, several inches behind where the stock A crossmember now resides.
I will take alot of pictures so anyone else needing the info on putting the later flatty in can benifit from my endeavors.
I will be using econoline front axle, steering and pedals/ master cyl. Possibly cowl steering if everything won't fit inside the frame.

 

The book also says that the 33-34 wishbone is 47 inches from center at the ball to the center of one of the perch-pin holes.
is that right ??? i belived that it was the 32' that was 47"
or did i missread it ??

my stupidity is that i read on page 27 :
Since we've done all the heavy work,you can just forge ahead using the dimensions indicated.

I did and engine got in wrong place
got to move it way back
(i'm using 49-53 and truck water pumps)

 

Here's a pic of the '51 engine in my dad's 31 AV8. The front of the mount is about 4 1/2" away from that bolt hole, but there isn't room for a mechanical fan. You can see a ruler lying on the frame. I'll try to get a closeup.

 

Thanks
i like as mutch info as posible so the second time around gets better.
i ain't got no radiator to do the fitting yet.
what wishbones did your dad use ??

 

Pop has split bones in his car, so that isn't gonna help you. He does have the deuce crossmember with the K brackets and pedals coming through it. It's a piece of art, it was a shame to put a body over it

I measured my '47 for what it's worth, it's 6 1/2" from the radiator mount hole to the front of the motor mount. And when it's all together the fan is about 1/2" away from the rad, it's close.

I think the fan you choose will make a difference. If you use an offset generator bracket you can mount the fan right to the intake and gain almost an inch of front clearance right there.

 

Don't know about that dimension, but the one engine mount dimension that Mike knows he goofed on is the diameter for the engine mount hole. It says inch and a half in the book and it should have said inch and a quarter.
Mart.

 

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Don't know about that dimension, but the one engine mount dimension that Mike knows he goofed on is the diameter for the engine mount hole. It says inch and a half in the book and it should have said inch and a quarter.
Mart.

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yeah..... I learned that the hard/stupid way to

 

Pics on this post, with a z'd front, the stock rad. mounting is too high, had to put it behind the crossmember. Look's like plenty of room but with the electric fan in there it is crowded enough. The original helmet style dist. woulkd not have worked. Never looked at that book, seem's like that would take the fun out of it. Mock-up is the only way I have kept from doing any major backpedaling. I had a bare block and trans case for mock-up and I can carry it around by myself. Try to find a junk motor to use the block from, will get a lot of use before you need the real thing in there.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=704733&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1

'structions? don't need no stinkin 'structions

 

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. . .my stupidity is that i read on page 27 :
Since we've done all the heavy work,you can just forge ahead using the dimensions indicated.

I did and engine got in wrong place
got to move it way back
(i'm using 49-53 and truck water pumps)

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Sorry about causing you so many problems. Looking back, we should have said that all dimensions are merely guidelines unless you are using the same hardware we used.