i just got a 51' tudor project and i'm pullin' the flathead and tranny and would love a few ideas on how to go about it BEFORE i start cuttin' into anything,,,it's got big block engine mount and bellhousing bolt patterns,i pulled it out of a lincoln along with the disc brakes,9" rear and c6 trans...lots of stuff to figure out.
Damn, that's even worse than putting a SBC or SBF in one. If you really don't want to keep the flatty, how about something that at least looks good and is (HAMB) period correct like a Y block, an FE, an early Caddy or something else that exudes style.
I don't know if this will help but I put a 351/C6 in my 49. There is a hump in the front cross member that I cut like a pie and smashed it flat, welded it back up and gave the motor enough room to sit down inside and I didn't have to do anything to the tranny mount except extend the mounting plat back another half inch. Ofcourse you have to make a new tranny tunnel but that's no big deal. oldcarnut
from "popular hotrodding" about the engine build off-------- If there was any doubt about the potential of the CHI Cleveland combination, the next engine would be a wake-up call. Bob Moore and Scott Main from MPG Heads have been competitors in the Engine Masters Challenge since the beginning in 2002. These guys were hungry, they were due, and this time they came packing serious iron in the form of a 400M with the dangerous CHI combo. Pulling the handle on the DTS dyno, the dials spun with a staggering display of power. Those in the know were stunned-the MPG team's engine was recording numbers that shattered the field. With subsequent pulls, a devastating drop in score gave evidence to what was going on inside the engine. The camshaft was wiping several lobes while the team stood by in disbelief-132 pre-event test pulls without incident, and the cam fails on the three that really count. Kaase is always a man to watch when the subject is engine building, and his 400M had not seen a wrench since the shipping crate was opened. Kaase worked the timing during the tuning period, watching the score surge over the numbers posted in qualifying. Still, it would be a tight race against Bischoff's leading marks. It appeared as though the hungry Ford was asking for more fuel. Kaase weighed the possibilities, electing not to risk a change. Kaase found 13.8 points in qualifying, putting his effort into the lead position but at a score below Bischoff's qualifying numbers. The SAM 351 Cleveland was next, an engine that qualified within striking distance of the score just turned in by Kaase. The team needed to find score and worked the tune during the allotted 20-minute period. It was just worked a little too hard, with repeated test pulls leading to heat soak and a significant point drop from qualifying.-----this motor is of course technically speaking,a 400 inch cleveland,,,and the results <TABLE cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=2 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=4>Final Results</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=4>2007 Jegs Engine Masters Challenge</TD></TR><TR><TD>Place</TD><TD>Competitor</TD><TD>Engine</TD><TD>Score</TD></TR><TR><TD>1st</TD><TD>BES Racing</TD><TD>400 Chevy</TD><TD>2,448.2</TD></TR><TR><TD>2nd</TD><TD>Jon Kaase Racing</TD><TD>400M Ford</TD><TD>2,443.4</TD></TR><TR><TD>3rd</TD><TD>School of Automotive Machinists</TD><TD>400 Chevy</TD><TD>2,430.6</TD></TR><TR><TD>4th</TD><TD>Power Shop</TD><TD>302 Chevy</TD><TD>2,412.2</TD></TR><TR><TD>5th</TD><TD>School of Automotive Machinists</TD><TD>351C Ford</TD><TD>2,406.6</TD></TR><TR><TD>6th</TD><TD>McKeown Motorsports</TD><TD>400M Ford</TD><TD>2,379.1</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
oh i'll be asking squigy for help when the time comes....as well as you too buddy...and thanx oldcarnut,did you have to cut it for the oil pan and what did you do for motor mounts?
I have a 460 in a 49 Ford Coupe, I put a Fatman front clip in the car, which is the only way this deal will work right. I wasn't sure when I stated the project how it would all work out, but it went together really easy. I used a Canton oil pan made for a 460 in a Fox body mustang, you would have thought it was custom made for the car, Fox body headers, and again they look like custom made for the car. Other than buying a clip and there upper and lower control arms, everything else is just oem ford pieces. I used just plain old coil springs and did'nt worry about coil over shocks on the front since I built the car to drive across country in the rain If I wanted to do it. If you buy a clip be sure to tell them If you intend to run power steering or not, when I bought mine you had to choose. There's a V notch they put in the crossmeber on the PS clip that they dont put in on the manual rack crossmember. Tom
awesome...i can't mock up anything 'cuz the oil pan hits the crossmember and i was thinking about a reverse pan but $350 is an expensive "guess" if it would work or not.
IMO I would switch to a different engine than a 400M because it's not that popular for parts. A 460 does'nt really weight that much more. If your wanting a nice tight package put a 351W in it that way you can buy tons of parts easy for it, and then If you want more cubes you can buy a cheap stroker crank easy. You can build a 393 for about the same price as a quality 351W rebuild. Tom
I have a 400M w/C6 in my 50 Ford P/U. It is stock with the factory 2bbl and such. The rear end is a 9" traction lock with 3.57 gears. The only part of any of this combo I am happy with is the rear end. The engine is an overweight behemoth for what little power it produces, speed parts are not worth the money asked, and even though the mileage (16 mpg. hwy.) was acceptable back in the 80's, it totally sucks at today's fuel prices. This time when I build it (Bought it this way in '87), I will be stuffing a roller 302 in it with an AOD tranny. I'd rather blow $2K on an inline 4bbl. set-up making a 302 look cool than spend the same money trying to make a 400M run right. The 400M was an OK truck/big car motor, but it wouldn't be my first choice even if I had a free one to play with, which I do.
Buy one thing to remember this is a $20,000 purpose built dyno shotout engine which would have a very short life on the street. These things are riding on the razors edge to be called a street engine. Tom
I agree with what's been said. From personal experience the 400M is not a great motor. It's a smogger, really. I know that two were entered in the competition you posted, but trust me, 400M's are a very soft casting that usually had massive failures in 30K miles. We had a F250 Crew Cab in '77 with a 400M. In the seventies you could get a warranty that lasted almost to the sidewalk of the dealership, not the curb or the street. The motor started showing trouble at 12K miles and it was yanked at 22K. Very common at the time, nobody seemed to get more than 40K out of one of these. They were considered JUNK. We built a hot 460 for it. :-D
Lincoln ? The motor and rear end came out of a Lincoln .351w and 302 came in Lincoln's .I bought a versaille 2 years ago for the drive train guy tried to tell me it had a 351 C It did not .MY 2 cents
thanx for the replies...i'm still thinkin' about it but i haven't decided yet,man i'm really against the grain on this one.
Interesting! I have a 400m in my Merc,that was tired when I got it,and i've put 30k miles it since I got it on the road. It uses a qt of oil everytime I take a trip over 100 miles,but still runs strong! I don't know how you could fit one in a Shoebox,cause it's tight in my Merc. I had to find a F250 4x4 oilpan to clear my crossmember. They came with a rear sump. It's not a horsepower motor, maybe 250hp,but has tons of torque!
if you want a big block go with a 460 lots of speed parts around alum intake cam some exhaust porting and good inch horse power. if a newer 460 after 73 get a older timing chain and gears 69-73
I have a free hot rebuilt 400 M in Wisco in a plow truck, that big bitch has enough torque to reverse the flow of the Mississippi but it is going to be bitch to fit into the Galaxie. It will probably end up going to scrap because no one wants one. Go figure.......... Every one is begging for torque and it is in the m series but they are the red headed stepchildren of motors...... Just like that crazy hose beast girlfriend....you will miss them when they are gone......
i think the lincoln i got it out of was a '79,,,at least that's what the sticker on the valve cover says...i still have the flattie and 3 speed manual but i don't know if the flattie is any good,it's from minnesota and i heard the blocks are prone to cracking...but i'd trade 'em both for a stock 302 in a heartbeat.
An FYI... The 351/400m is considered a small black. Good engine in early form, the later ones lacked power. 71-73 timing chain and gears will wake it up a bit, but it also needs a little more compression. If it is a Lincoln engine, it must be a 78 or 79, the only years it was available. Dependable, yes, but make sure the engine is not gunked up inside. The Cleveland series engines are prone to spinning bearings because the oil goes to the cam before the crank. I had a 73 Galaxie with a 400 that was a screamer. Over 140,000 miles when it went to the crusher. The engine is in the garage. As for the trans, find a Lincoln owner and donate it for a spare. For anything else it is a pain. It is 3" longer than a standard C6 and has a unique trans mount that would be a bear to modify.
I thought Cleveland was essntially the same as modified, big block no? I have a 351C in a 51 Merc here, fits like shit.
A 351 Cleveland is called a small block because it shares the same bellhousing bolt pattern as a 289/302/351W and has a 9.2" deck height which is .300" less than a 351W The351/400M engines have taller deck height at 10.29" ( which is basically a 429/460 deck height at 10.32" ), larger main journals 3.00" ( same as 429/460 ) and share the same bellhousing bolt pattern with the 429/460 engine Anyone that ever called a 351/400M a small block, just plain did'nt know anything about Ford engines. You could call them a big block since the 400m has more stroke than a 460 by .150" But no on ever calls them a Big Block either, so I guess there just in the middle of the road engine. I had a built 400M in a F250 that really ran good, but I would never go to the trouble to put one in a car. Tom
Did you ever put the 400m into the Shoebox? I am in the process of putting a 400m into a 51 Chevy. Why, because I can and to be different from everyone else that is putting a 350 into a Ford! http://www.tmeyerinc.com/400Fordpg4.htm
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