EXOTIC engine tech Q??..... I mean "look in here for DRAMA!"

Hey guys I was wondering if any of you have any experience with:

Engine coatings, like thermal barrier on piston crowns & combustion chambers, dry film on skirts, oil shedding on cranks & rods, etc...

Meta-lax stress relieving of engine parts

Cryogenic treatment of engine parts


Now I don't wanna hear the old timers say "**** that new tech ****... steam power's where it's at!" ... I want HONEST opinions based on EXPERIENCE!

The deal is, as many of you may know, after paying a supposedly reputable company (we'll call them ****-E-MOTORS) a pretty good chunk of change to build a short block for me, I've had nothing but trouble with it. I guess it all comes back to "If you want something done right...You've gotta do it yourself", SO, I'm gonna build another shortblock.

My goal is to run streetable 9's in a 3000 lb car (for you pessimists that say it can't be done, I was running streetable 10's with 50-60% leakdown on all 8 cylinders! ), So I'm looking for any "extra" power that can be had, as well as reliability, cuz I drive the **** outta my cars!

Anybody got any info?

 

I've heard good things about Swain Technologies. I have a friend that built up an import engine using their coatings and had a good expierience.

http://www.swaintech.com/

 

I usually get mine through http://www.powerandperformancenews.com/store/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=PH

They work, I regularly used Heanium on the faces of valves, crown of pistons, and various other coatings for bearings and piston skirts on race engines when I was building race bikes. I still like to use them on the big V-8s.

various links
http://www.techlinecoatings.com/Engine.htm
http://www.polydyn.com/hpec.htm
http://www.hpcoatings.com/engine_coatings.htm
http://www.swaintech.com/

 

i think smoothing and coating pieces to reduce friction/drag on the rotating ***embly is a good idea.

forget what mag it was, but the builder smoothed crank journals and coated them with some oil resistant paint (or something similar). build it with factory clearences, and use normal 30w oil.... if NASCAR builders are doing it, it should be good enough for dragracing

do you have a list of parts you are currently working with?

your nova is 3000pnds? we weighed my friends 70 nova @ 2600, still streetable, and no rollcage.

 

Actually, yes..

I've done research on all the technologies you've mentioned, and there's only one reason you don't see it on every engine on the road-

Price!

This stuff costs extra, but it all helps.

I'm especially fond of coatings. I've seen them make power. I know they add durability. I like their ability to put thermal control in the hands of the designed instead of leaving such critical points to chance.

I choose to run thermal barriers on piston tops, chambers, valves, and inside all ports...especially on aluminum heads. I also like adding this treatment to the bottom of the intake manifold to help prevent heat.

The anti-friction coatings work great on piston skirts, and pre-coated bearings are available from Calico now. Calico Coatings also does my coating work.

They also have a heat-shedding coating, which turns your oil pan into an oil cooler of sorts. Nice.

I've also researched Casidium, which is a trick mew coating that has been proven to reduce friction by upwards of 45 percent. That Fourty-Five percent! It's common on piston pins, valves, and other non-point-loading surfaces (point-loading like gear teeth or chains is not Casidium-compatible. It's a thin, hard coating that can be worn off in point-loaded situations. For surface-to-surface situations, it's quite ideal).

other coating companies (besides Calico) can sell you a "do-it-yourself" coating kit, but I prefer to let the mfr. apply these thin films to ensure it's done as well as possible. I may learn to apply these myself in the future, but I don't have a spare garage oven right now and I don't wish to sacrifice the flavor of my pot roast in the kitchen!

Todays racers know coatings work, it's simply a matter of money whether they have them or not. All the NASCAR engines and NHRA compe***ors are using coatings of some kind.

With regard to Meta-Lax and Cryo treatment, I've worked in shops with Meta-Lax machines and they would treat everything from bare blocks and cranks to completely ***embled engines. Personally, I favor using the treatment prior to machining, but thats a personal (non-data-related) opinion.

Some close and trusted friends won't build with parts that haven't been "cryo'ed". They tell me this is especially true with factory forged cranks that are about to see serious duty (nitrous/blower applications). They must see something.They claim many more miles (p***es) on treated parts. I'm inclined to beleive them, since they win a lot.

Henry Ford learned a long time ago that treating freshly-cast blocks made them more durable. His technique was to bury them underground for a year or some, then machine them. He called it seasoning, and true racers know a used block is better than a new one for the same reason. I think these techniques (meta-lax, cryo, etc.) are taking seasoning to a higher level, encouraging the block to relax to a more natural state, and this means less movement in the future. Since this is on a molecular level, it can't be seen with the naked eye, but its effectiveness is not in question.

Check Calico's website for more coating info.

These new technologies do work, but they are yet-another cost, which is (I feel) the primary reason many don't run them in street engines.

You want to go 9s, RELIABLY, you need this stuff. I won't build another race engine without them.

I don't want to plug my own stuff here, but keep an eye on the Engine Masters Challenge program I helped give birth to in Popular Hot Rodding mag. Check www.enginemasters.com for a ton of info. I wrote all the stuff on there, and there's lots of coating info involved.

I could go on. If you have more questions, or if you'd like me to go deeper on this thread, ask. I am anxious to see other HAMBer's opinions, and I don't want to hijack your thread. But, if you want me to talk more about how and why this stuff works, I'm willing...

(it's not traditional technology, but finding horsepower is a hot rod tradition!!)

Scotch~!

 

Yep my nova was 3100 with me in it, and I've taken about 150# out of it since then. ***le weight was 2610#, but now it has a full frame (MII front, dbl adj ladder bar rear), a 10pt cage, and 9" rear, so that's a bunch of weight put back in!

I'm gonna be bulding on a Bowtie CNC sportsman block. I'm gonna use my existing 3.75" Eagle steel crank and 6" H-beam rods. I'm gonna step up to JE pistons, instead of the SRP's I was running (I think I might wanna spray it sometime down the road) They're just 4.155" 2 valve relief flat tops, nuthin special (although I may go with gas ported this time around). The heads are CNC ported Brodix Track 1's(303 @.700 on the intakes!), milled to 64 cc chambers, with TI retainers.The cam may be swapped, I'm not sure yet, but right now I have a Lunati Solid Roller, 268/270 @.050, .632/.632. I have a fully ported Super Victor Intake with a 825 Race Demon carb.

Put together right, this motor should be capable of 650-700 HP at the flywheel, and with the other shortblock, the most I ever got was 400 at the wheels (I would guess 500 and some change at the flywheel).
9's should come pretty easy I think.

 

By all means Scotch, SPILL YOUR GUTS!!!

That's why I asked!

I do follow the engine masters challenge (that's cool you're involved...what exactly did you have to do with that??), and I noticed that a lot of those guys were running them, so I thought there must be something to it!

 

I'm a big beliver in Extrude Honing manifolds and other parts for improved flow.

--Matt

 

I won't build another engine without a heat barrier on the piston crowns, combustion chambers, valves, and exhaust ports. The piston skirts and bearings might as well have the anti-friction compound too. I used Calico for my 406 and have recently coated a set of pistons myself for a 383. The application process was easy for me because I have the right tools and experience. The surface preparation is the most important step.

Are you sure you want to use gas port pistons on a street engine? It was my understanding that the gas ports only really work at high RPM. At regular street revs you will have terrible blow-by. The ports will clog-up after they have fouled your rings.

 

HRTH-
With regard to the Engine Masters Challenge, you'll see one single name responsible for every story, and also the parameters of the annual Challenge engines, the Rules, and more.

Scott Parkhurst

Scotch, for short...

I developed it from an idea to what it is today. I've had lots of help, no doubt...but the Challenge concept and its current development is pretty much been my doing, within the bounds of business and with the great ***istance of one terrific co-worker who has been with me on it since day one. Together, Mike Simpson and I have responsibility for making the Challenge happen at all. He's the producer (handling all logistics) and I'm the Tech Director (handling most engine tech issues and all editorial responsibilities).

So, ya...I've had something to do with it.

(more to come on the coatings thing soon - I've got to take my time on that post. It'll be meaty.)


Scotch!~

 

[ QUOTE ]
I won't build another engine without a heat barrier on the piston crowns, combustion chambers, valves, and exhaust ports. The piston skirts and bearings might as well have the anti-friction compound too. The surface preparation is the most important step.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been following this practice since I read about it in a book about engine building by "Grumpy Jenkens"...!

Cheap hp is what I'm all about... !

It has been calculated that for every "Pound" of reciprocating m*** it will rob about Nine Horse power at the rear wheels!

So dump the turbo 400's for a 350 and pick up a tenth..., go to a glide and get close to 2 tenths...!

High tech works on old parts because the design of a piston engine is relatively the same design used for 75 years...!

Mark

 

[ QUOTE ]
(it's not traditional technology, but finding horsepower is a hot rod tradition!!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus, what's to say this couldn't be applied to an early Hemi, Olds Rocket, Buick Nailhead or even a flathead Ford?

Cool info.

 

It almost sounds like cheating....I like it. I wouldn't mind seeing what kind of HP could be gained just by coating an engine alone.

Though that wouldn't probably be the biggest gain in the world, it would be interesting to see. I am sure the durability is the most affected aspect behind coating an engine. At this point I don't know why everyone wouldn't do this....well besides the fact that it cost more to do and all, but hey it'd save you money in the long run if it added to the life of the engine - especially a radical engine. Though I used to wonder why everyone doesn't build roller motors for the same reason. Guess that's why I leave my engine builds up to my brother, he's the guru....

Also, I wonder what it does to your mileage - it has to be better. Ceramic coatings and friction reducers.....it makes you wonder whats next....

I'll be watching this post closely.

 

[ QUOTE ]
HRTH-
With regard to the Engine Masters Challenge, you'll see one single name responsible for every story, and also the parameters of the annual Challenge engines, the Rules, and more.

Scott Parkhurst

Scotch, for short...

I developed it from an idea to what it is today. I've had lots of help, no doubt...but the Challenge concept and its current development is pretty much been my doing, within the bounds of business and with the great ***istance of one terrific co-worker who has been with me on it since day one. Together, Mike Simpson and I have responsibility for making the Challenge happen at all. He's the producer (handling all logistics) and I'm the Tech Director (handling most engine tech issues and all editorial responsibilities).

So, ya...I've had something to do with it.

(more to come on the coatings thing soon - I've got to take my time on that post. It'll be meaty.)


Scotch!~

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmmmmmmmm didn't realize the main man was a member here.......
One little bit of advise on your next engine challenge Mr Scotch.
Try to level the playing field a bit more will ya? If the rules state "No programmable ignition systems" Try to make sure that ALL the compe***ors follow the rules........and that goes for engine BLOCKS also.
Seems as though SOME of the big block teams,got a bit of an advantage,thru last minute RULE changes........
Just a thought.

 

Thoughts count.

Next Challenge happens in the first week of October. Pretty soon..

It's better. Evolution leads to better things. I've been busy making sure of it.

Scotch!~

 

Okay...here's some thoughts, facts, and opinions.

With regard to thermal barrier coatings...they are basically a ceramic, like porcelain. Though they are very thin, they do in fact present a barrier to heat. While its efectiveness is hardly complete (things do heat up, of course), the fact remains they do serve as an insulating agent, and when dealing with certain moving elements (like air/fuel charge, and coolant), they can maintain a temperature differential on either side of the surface they are applied to.

So, let's talk about aluminum heads for a bit...

One of the critiques of aluminum heads is their inability to keep heat in the combustion chamber as well as iron heads. This has been attributed to a measurable power loss (however minor) and fans of alloy heads have equalized the game by simply adding a bit more compression to the aluminum heads.

Coating the chambers changes things. Now, the newly-insulated chamber is capable of keeping more heat in the chamber, like an iron head. The benfits of alloy heads still exist (lighter weight, ability to shed unwanted heat, and repairability). The selection of aftermarket aluminum heads is growing daily, and with coatings, the chambers gain the insulation properties we like.

Okay - next subject. Detonation. We're already thinking inside the chamber, so I'll hang out in here for a bit. Detonation starts from a sharp edge, which heats up to a point where it glows from latent heat left over in the chamber. It's like when wind blows over a burning log- the sharp exposed edges of the wood burn the brightest because more of their surface area is exposed. The same basic thing happens inside your combustion chamber. Whether its a bit of casting flash, a sharp machined edge of the chamber extending into the bore, or a buildup of carbon deposits acting like the charcoal they look like, having any sharp edge inside the chamber is a potential hot spot for detonation to begin.
The ceramic coatings have no sharp edges. Coating chambers leaves them with a smooth surface, and at the very least, limits whatever sharp surface may already exist. While thin, the coating offers a porcelain-like surface exposed to the chamber, and that's a good thing. This is also why its a good idea to coat piston tops.

Okay- let's head to the intake port.

Air and fuel charge travel through here on their way to the chamber. As hot rodders, we go to great lengths to keep this charge cool. From air-gapped intakes to phenolic spacers to water injection to hoodscoops, we're on a quest to force cool air/fuel into the port. Should that port be coated, we now have an insulating layer helping us out all the way to the valve (and, if the intake valve is also coated, even further). These chilly temps are all in a quest to keep a denser mixture heading into the chamber, as a denser mix has more oxygen molecules in it, and oxygen burning is what makes power. More is definitely better...

On the exhaust side, there's more good things happening. The heated exhaust p***ing through the port is insulated from the coated port wall, which keeps more heat in the exhaust stream. That means less heat is transferred to the head (keeping coolant temps down), and more heat in the exhaust makes for a faster-moving exhaust charge. Why?

Its hot, and its constantly wanting to expand. Have you seen header wraps on full-race cars? Coated headers? It's all in a quest to keep heat inside the tuned-length pipes and allow it to expand when we want it to (in the header collector) rather than losing heat energy from the moment the exhaust valve opens.

By coating the exhaust valve, it too becomes insualted. If you've ever worked on valve guides, you may have learned to give the exhaust guide a bit more clearance than the intake valve. This is due to the increased heat the exhaust valve sees (versus the intake valve). Being heated up more means the exhaust valve expands more, and therefore needs a bit more clearance in the guide. It's why race exhaust valves are often engineered to be filled with sodium, which melts in the hot environment inside the exhaust valve stem and becomes liquid..where it then acts as a coolant...pulling the unwanted heat from the valve. A coated valve helps in a similar manner.

So, I like thermal barrier coatings for those reasons. In running the Engine Masters Challenge, the one thing I've seen work more than any other strategy has been thermal control inside the engine. Keeping heat where you want it (like in the chamber) and dispersing it away from where you don't (especially near the intake manifold) has been something the better-performing engines have all had in common. Plumbing coolant lines into the heads for reverse cooling and the addition of thermal barriers all over the engine (as both coatings and in other cases, plastic, phenolic, and sheetmetal barriers) shows the critical importance of heat control. The ease of having coatings applied makes them one of the easier ways of getting a higher level of thermal control internally.

Friction reduction coatings are an entirely different matter. Applying these coatings is much simpler to explain, since everyone knows friction takes power to overcome, and also that friction causes heat. The piston skirts and bearings are the favorite places to apply these coatings, and pre-coated parts like these are avaialble in the more-common sizes from major manufacturers already. These friction reducers are graphite-based, and when they come in contact with oil, present a super-slippery surface for the parts to ride on.

As I mentioned in a previous post, casidium is the latest friction-reduction coating I've been exposed to, and it's need for a specially-engineered vacuum chamber to apply them seems to be the only limiting factor. It's what makes the application out of reach for the average enthusiast, and while the coating services are readily offered to anyone, the expenses and time spent waiting present barriers to some. Whether or not they're effective is not in question.

There are also oil-shedding coatings available. These coatings, when applied to the reciprocating ***embly (crankshaft counterweights and connecting rods) encourage the oil to leave these surfaces in much the same way well-waxed paint job encourages water to bead up and flow off. This may seem minor, but when you consider the excess weight this additional oil adds to the spinning reciprocating ***embly, and the fact your crank has to carry this weight with every revolution, it's basically free power you're getting with the coated parts. Getting the hot oil in the pan and off the spinning parts is common sense.

I also mentioned heat-shedding coatings. As an oil pan coating, the pan becomes even more of a heat sink, and while the vehicle is moving, the amount of heat being drawn away from the pan is greatly increased. For those living in warm climates or road racing, shedding greater amounts of heat is a big deal, so this new technology can be a great help.

Coatings have come a long way, and they have futher to go. More and more of these technologies are being developed all the time, and they will only keep getting better and less expensive as they become more common. As non-moving mods, they require no maintenance and can last the life of the engine. They contribute to longer engine life in addition to greater power capabilities and better thermal control.

If you're about to invest in a serious engine project, and especially if that same powerplant will be a compe***ion effort, it's hard not to consider coatings.


Scotch!~

 

scotch, RIGHT ON...

 

wow, Scotch, I think you must be a genius or something

Can you put the thermal barrier coating stuff on the heads if they are all ***embled? or do you need to do the valves seperatly. ***uming I only wanted it in the combustion chamber area and not in the ports.

 

Cool! Thanks man... I had no idea that you were THE rockstar of Poplular Hot Rodding! Good thing I didn't tell ya what I think of that mag! (Without trying to sound like TOO much of an *** kisser, I read what you write and pretty much skim the rest, cuz the roads are straight around here, with lots of stoplights... "G-Machines" don't have much to do! ). I ordered a subscription to "Drag Racing USA", and got 3 issues before they started shipping me PHR instead!



Do you know if any companies give a "quan***y discount" for getting a bunch of **** coated by them at once? (Sorry, I'm a broke *** *****! )

ALSO, do you have any input on the gas ported pistons for street use?

 

Flex-

Genius? no, far from it.

Something else? Definitely, but even I'm not sure what yet.

I do like going fast, so I listen when the right guys are talking and try and share what I've learned from the best by using what they say/do in my own stuff and sharing their ideas/theories/research results with anyone who wants to know. Anything I can learn to make more power y'know..

With regard to application, it's best to have the heasd completely dis***embled. I'm not aware of any other way to apply them. as was mentioned earlier, the surface myst be completely clean and properly prepped so the coatings will stick. This is completely true and the only way to ensure this is done correctly is to dis***emble the head prior to the application. I feel it may actually be easier to apply the coatings to both ports and chambers simultaneously, if it weren't for the prep work involved.

Scotch!~

 

Everything makes perfect sense and my head isn't even going to pop. I actually got it I think......


Maybe I'm a genius....I'll ask my wife...........NOPE!


And if anyone wants to kiss Scotch's ***, the line starts behind me, I'm his stalker...

 

great info scott

the cost still keeps me personally from using whats available on a regular basis, i only use it on full out race pieces, sparingly


kudos on the engine challenge series, i loved it from the concept, i made a run at the 1st one,but finances and available time off won over, just couldnt put it all together

was tickled to see joe do so well tho


on a side note , was the engine entry that was stolen ever recovered? i had heard that his pickup was found, but never heard anything on the mill


Fred

 

Oh, another question...

Do the MetaLax & Cryo treatments use different methods to achieve basically the same result, or are they accomplishing different things?

If it would be beneficial to do both, which one would you do first?!?

 

Cryogenic treatment of metals is for durability. By taking the metal close to absolute zero it 're-aligns' the molecular structure of the metal making it stronger. When done to things like machine tools, they last alot longer which is a major expense in production tooling. It Does work on engine parts as well and for a serious engine, strength is always a problem.

 

Ok guys. I just got off the tele with a few places...
To have a complete SBC Cryo'd is anywhere between $800 & $1000, depending on who you talk to. (Of course the place that's only an hour away from me COLD FIRE says $1000!)

I also spoke to Bonal Technologies( META-LAX ), the company that invented Meta-lax treatment, and sells the equipment to all of the other places that offer that service. They are also about an hour away, and they said it's $95 PER table load of parts treated, a block and crank will fit on 1 easily, a complete SBC will probably take 2.

So here we're talking $200 compared to $1000, so I reiterate,

Do the MetaLax & Cryo treatments use different methods to achieve basically the same result, or are they accomplishing different things?


BTW: Both local places are about the same distance from my house, and they both have a 3 day turnaround time.

 

Hey Scotch

Since coating technologies have been around for some time now..., (Grumpy and Smokey 1970's) Why hasn't it become mainstream for outside of racing applications...???

Did the adhesive properties of the coatings had an effect on this..., or just the cost factor...?

What's the best stuff for the tops of pistons? Combustion chambers? and Headers?

Mark

 

Is that $200 for you to bring the parts in person vs. the $1000 for a ship to and fro....That's a huge gap.

I would have to point that difference out to them - after I went to Meta-Lax of course....send Coldfire a copy of your bill.

 

[ QUOTE ]
...I'm gonna use my existing 3.75" Eagle steel crank and 6" H-beam rods...

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmm... really? For the power you are talking of making these are at their limit... especially if used. I would seriously consider upgrading to some better stuff.

You are talking JE pistons because you might want to spray... exotic coating and cryo to get the most out of it.
Now is not the time to skimp.

Their SBC rods are rated to 700 hp. I'd hate to see you spend all this money and time only to spit a rod out of the new block.

I know someone who can get Callies, Lunati, Crower... call me and I'll get you priced!

(seriously... at least ditch the rods!)

 

Well see Mike, That's what I thought... the guys at ******** told me to step up to billet rods, but at $1500 a set, that's a little "GOLD-CHAINER" for me ! I talked to a guy at another local speed shop and he told me the rods were rated to 1000 HP, but if cryo treated in a motor that was ***embled correctly they would take more without worry!

I'm thinkin' I'd like to get 700 on the motor, and then probly at least a 350 shot on top of that...(What's the point of a little shot of nitrous? If yer gonna spray it then spray it, Right?)

If I have to step up to all new parts, then this project's gonna get put on hold for a while .(I was gonna spend more than I can afford just to get the block, cuz it's too good of a deal to p*** up!)

Man... this being a grown up thing and having bills and **** ****s!

 

I gotta make some calls... I think that 700 hp is the max. I'll check with Jimmy at Eagle and see what he thinks. While I'm at it, I will check with some of the engine builders I know. (I am not an engine builder... but I sell to some of the great ones)

I'm sure I can get you into something from Lunati for less than half of what ******** told you.

You are looking for 9's with streetability. The rods and crank are going to take the most abuse. I'm not trying to sell you something... just trying to keep you from blowing up a motor.

Mike