Projects Project Update, Please Comment!!

Well, we got it done enough to show with pride if not quite street legal yet. For the benefit of all but those 3 people that responded the last time I will recap the project.
I am a student at Arizona State University and will be graduating in a few days with my BS degree in Mechanical Engineering. My senior design group decided to build a hot rod. The idea was to build a traditional rod but was also a great handling car. This is the first time any of the design group had built a car, so it was a great learning experience and a lot of fun. But it was done with a shoestring budget and a short amount of time. I think the results speak for themselves and I hope it meets with the approval of this community. Feel free to comment, we are looking for critique.
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The first step was to determine what parts we had. So I raided my dad’s junk pile and turned up a Ford 460, C6 trans, and 9 inch rear end. I know, I know, we wanted a handling car and that pig of a powerplant is not helping. Keep reading.

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We also were able to bat our pretty eyes at dear old dad and get a front axle from a project he did not finish, some fat**** rear tires, as well as use of his machine shop. We had access to a mill, lathe, TIG and MIG welders, and a myriad of other goodies. His friend Tom was kind enough to loan us his plasma cutter on the weekends. We built the frame at dad’s friend John’s awesome facilities and later we finished the build in dad’s garage. Thanks again dad.
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Since money was in somewhat short supply ( I got laid off twice during the project, lucky me) we decided to go with a fiberglass T-bucket body for low cost considerations. It was decided that a Watts link would be used front and back to keep things tight, as well as quarter elliptical springs on all four corners. Believe it or not, if you design and build this stuff yourself you can do it for pocket change.


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The frame had another interesting feature in that it was curved in the back where the kickup was. This was an attempt to add more strength to the design because it would minimize stress concentrations, and it looked really cool. This was an idea my dad came up with before, we stole it shamelessly. After a quick FEA*****ysis, it was proven to be a good design so we went ahead and put up the basic frame.


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The engine was torn down and resealed. Nothing else was done to it. During this process we found we actually had a Lincoln 460 with the cool heads. Very nice score. Thanks again dad.
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The front springs were made by cutting Suzuki Samurai springs in half, drilling the center hole and building plates to attach to the frame. We used .5 inch grade 8 bolts. The same process was repeated in the back. This gave us adjustability not easily achieved with conventional coil springs, was traditional, and really looked great when it was done. As a side benefit, since we were going with the look of a long T, there had been concern that the frame would be a bit bendy under all the weight of the drivetrain. This was not a concern as the springs mount quite a bit in from the center from coil springs. This means you get the stiffness of a short frame, but the high speed stability and look of a long one.
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When all the parts of the engine had been found and had been****embled, it was time to put the engine and trans in the frame. Looked pretty good. A carb was donated by the roommate of one of the team members. A really nice one. And before anyone says anything about the anodized fuel lines, well. I am not such a jerk as to be too good to take free stuff so generously given. I believe our traditional hotrod forefathers would agree. If you don’t, I don’t care.


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The engine was place in the frame about 5 inches from the firewall to give the car about a 50/50 weight distribution. It was also placed low so all that mass would give a low center of gravity. Again, I think it looks pretty******in. One downside to this however is that the driveline I pretty short. About 1 foot long. And it is at about 6 degrees of angle. The driveline shop had a coronary when we told them this, but they are working on it anyway. I made up a quick line so we could do some testing before the project was due, and it seems to be working well now. It will be replaced with a proper driveline as soon as it is done.


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The radius rods were built by the team. They are pretty long, but this is actually for a good reason. William and Douglas Milliken literally wrote the book on vehicle dynamics along with Maurice Olley at GM from the 30’s to the 60’s. They determined that having the front radius rods a minimum of 60 inches long is desired to keep the kingpin inclination from changing too much during braking resulting in shimmy and instability. Rear radius rods should be 47 inches or better to manage wheel hop during hard acceleration. We made our rods with these specs in mind. Personally I think they look good like this too. But that is just me.
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We went with GM disc brakes up front, and ran all over town to get parts for them from a parts list rather than get them from a hot rod store. It saved quite a bit of money and works well. The rear brakes were left as Ford intended in the original 1960 F-100 rear end. The pads, wheel cylinders, and springs were replaced, otherwise they were left alone. A trip to the local So-Cal shop yielded a proportioning valve. Back to the parts store and we were trying to find adaptors for the GM brakes and the Ford master cylinder and lines and proportioning valve, and a lot of cussing later we had some brake lines. I***** at running lines. But they work. The master cylinder was found on Ebay for cheap, and it’s a nice under floor model. The pedal arm was modified for our particular use, but otherwise it looks and operates well.


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Ebay also yielded a radiator cheap. It had a******* cooler in it and was set up to not look too bad. So far as we can tell it is keeping things cool. A bourbon bottle was used as an overflow tank. I am particularly proud of that one as it was my idea. One of the other group members made the mount as a project. He had never used the mill before, so it was even more fun to see him absolutely kill that one.


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A solid steel floor was used. This was so we could more securely mount the seat, battery, and body by threading the bolts right into it. And I like the idea of having a more ferrous car. Some have said they don’t like the all metal look in there, but I am digging the industrial vibe it gives. It may be upholstered at some point if it burns my**** in the hot Arizona sun, but right now I like it.
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A big**** Lokar shifter was found, original T steering wheel, and a gas pedal from So-Cal again complete the rest of the controls. We made a quick brake pedal pad out of solid aluminum as a fun thing to do one day as well.
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A basic wiring kit was scored and installed in a few minutes.
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The exhaust is something else that dear old dad and I are particularly proud of. I designed it, and he did most of the bending and welding. I finished when he was a bit too busy. By this point I am not too bad with a wire welder and grinder. So here it is. Right now they are straight pipes, so the local constabularies will not approve. But it is not street legal yet, so in the meantime I can enjoy the sweet sound of 460 cubic inches of unbridled power. And they really look awesome. Thanks yet again dad.
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All this led to final****embly and some testing. We were able to borrow an accelerometer from the school. We need some adjustment and tuning, but the initial results were pretty good. We think that the torque converter in the car is not good for this purpose in that it has a low stall speed. So right now launches are not quite the stump pulling experience we were expecting. This will be changed as soon as my occupational troubles are figured out. The******* needs to go in for a check up anyway as it leaks pretty bad. We resealed the engine, as you may recall, but not the*******. It marks its territory pretty well right now. However, after a little while when the engine is able to really kick in, that*****er moves. And it pulls like a freight train. Under braking we were able to measure about .7 g’s and we think we can do a bit better than that with more adjustment.


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As a side note, I can trace the real reason the car leaks to the Armstrong lever shock up front. They are from a Triumph TR6. As anyone familiar with old European stuff knows, if the car stops leaking its out. If I stops making funny noises run away, it’s about to blow up. Using European parts doomed it to a life of leaking stuff. That is my story and I am sticking to it.
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Later we did a skid pad test. We reset the accelerometer accordingly and went at it. During the test the driver and test equipment operator were pushed into that fiberglass body pretty hard, and since there were no seat belts or other restraints, the body responded by cracking. The test was ended immediately. This was disappointing as the car had a lot more left in it, but we were able to score a .8 lateral acceleration. I think it can easily exceed .9. That is Mustang GT territory, and it may be able to knock on the 1 g door with proper setup. Since the report is due tomorrow, I am not sure the problem will be fixed and retested in enough time before we have to give back the testing equipment, but we are trying. If it is able to be done, I will update. In any case, a big block T-bucket pulling .8 and looking for more is something I am pretty proud of. I really want to try that again.
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The car still needs lights, a horn, and some minor work done. Paint was just a spray can on the body for now, we are hoping to improve that again when I have a job.
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I would like to thank my team mates, this was a lot of fun and I would work with them again any time. Greg’s dad for stepping in on the financial aspect when things went south for me. I wish I could repay such kindness. My dad for the parts and tools and expertise (he has built cars before professionally). He was also our consult regarding what was traditional and what was not so much. I would also like to thank our instructor Dr. Huebner (he was a senior designer at Ford before retirement) for his input and guidance. And allowing us to be hoodlums for a senior design project. I hope this meets with his approval. I would also like to thank my wife and kids for putting up with me. Sometimes I am not sure why she does. She must love me a lot.


this is a shot of dad having too much fun out there in the parking lot of the school where the testing was done. that was a good day.
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Again, if you have any comments please put them down. Any critiques are appreciated and I will try to respond (this is finals week). If anyone knows of places hiring for engineers, please drop me a line. Thanks for reading.
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Kevin

 

Looks Pretty sweet! I want a closer look at that beast when I head down to Phoenix next!

 

Really like the rear kick's curves. Wish I had thought of something more like that. Gary

 

neat car. like your frame work. looks like a fun ride.

 

Sure hope you are going to install a roll bar of some type if you are going to be conducting any more speed and or G. trials. Other than worrying about your head and other body parts it looks good.

 

I am actually really interested in finding out what your prof thinks about it. Will he see the actual car or just the report and pictures?

 

I think you did a great job. I love the curved frame kick up.
I'd call it the Drag "T". Put some formof seat/body restraint in it and a rollbar/chalf cage would be highly recomended (see pics of my glass T) since there is nothing for strength in a glass body. Just think about the soccer mom on the cell phone blowing through a stop sign and T-boning you in that.
Just suggestions.
I think you did a great job and now have a cool hot rod my by you and friends/family to boot.
Carry on.
r

 

looks like some pretty nice fab work , especially on the frame ! how do you like the quqrter ellipticals up front ?

 

Neat project! I would really like to know how the car steers. With the tierod in front of the axle, the ackerman would be off. With the pitman arm pointing up instead of down, it seems like it would bump steer. If it works OK thats great, I'm just curious. I hope you get an A.

 

Nice project...a glass T with a 460...Bitchin.

 

T Buckets and Lap Tops....never thought I'd see the day....Very cool project hope your mentor "gets it"...and supports your interests...."Education is the lighting of a FIRE....not the filling of a BUCKET"....pardon the pun.....Nice job!

 

I see a lot of well thought out ideas come to life. Frame work was very nice and the 460 and C-6 fit like a glove. You should get many thousands of miles of service out of your ride. The one thing I didnt care for is the rear panard bar bracket on the rear-Looks to tall for me but if its working and geometry is right and no flex is visible so be it. I give you an A+ and thats how I see it.

 

Pretty damn neat! Excellent write-up too!
I was wondering how heavy and thick that floor is, if you're threading right into it.

 

I like it. The rear kick up looks good. I concure with a roll bar. But it's your ride and it looks cool.

 

That's a cool ride ..Love the Ford motor. Who winds up with the car? Does Dad get a degree too? Sounds like he should .. at least an "honorary" one ...

 

Nice build, really like the frame work. A+

I completely agree with the roll protection and good restraints, though, especially for g-testing!!

It does not appear that there is anything to prevent a pole-vault and face plant on the asphalt in the event that you have a fatigue failure on one of your front springs. Inspect them often!

Have fun, great project!

 

hey guys, thanks for posting. i will try to respond to as many people as i can.

the quarter ellipticals so far are working well on all four corners and we like them. you just have to watch your shins when the wheels are not on the car.

the professor will see the actual car. he agreed to the project on the condition he gets to drive it. we are hoping our second round of testing will include him and a better place to play than a parking lot. like an old airforce base. we shall see.

we were concerned about bump steer too. the placement of the pitman arm was not what it was supposed to be at first. i made a, well, um, mistake and changed the design without checking to see if the pitman arm in the down position would work. it would not. however, we checked the bump steer before we put the front tires on by raising and lowering the front axle and measuring the resulting angle. since the radius rods are so long, the angle does not change much, and bump steer is not noticable while driving. it could be better, and a different (read expensive) steering box would fix the problem.

that tower on the rear end is for the watts link back there. it is a bit tall, but was not avoidable. we tried to make it look as good as we could.

the floor is 3/16 steel. we threaded nothing structural to it. the seat has bolts that pass through. just some sheetmetal and the body were treated like that. the floor weights about 80 pounds, and we sunk the battery into it under the seat.



as for the roll cage, we agonized over that one for a while. the reason it is not there is it is hard to make them look good. not very engineering like, i know. but we also thought it is safer than a motorcycle, and i have one of those too. i am already looking out for the soccer moms on cell phones. but thanks for the concern, and we will keep thinking about it.

 

raven61,

that is a nice roll cage. i must admit.

 

Nice work!

 

btw, the spindles were heated and bent to change the tie rod location so as to have the correct Ackerman angles. we did that a few weeks ago. some simple math and geometry as well as a tape measure and a big**** flame. we got that one covered.

 

looks very cool, and fun to drive. nice job.