From those of you that have made a pass with an inline-6. Say in the 125-135hp range. 230-235-250 chev. axle is a 12 bolt with 3.307 ratio limited slip. Coker L78-15 tires. I've been presented with 2 transmission options. Muncie wide ratio, Muncie close ratio. Car will see 85% of it's time doing 1/8 mile passes. Here is a scenario with both transmissions. http://fatboyraceworks.com/gears/in...eter_2=15&Calculate=Calculate/Graph&Compare=1 I'm of the opinion, I'd like to be in 3rd crossing the line in the 1/8th and in 4th crossing the line in the 1/4. My personal opinion is if the engine is good to 4500, the close ratio. If 5000 is doable, the wide ratio. That's guessing at 70mph in the 1/8th and 90mph in the 1/4 on stock internals. Any thoughts appreciated.
Set the ratio so that you will be turning your target rpm in the lights. if the engine has torque the wide ratio will probably work fine and will more than likely be better suited for the 1/8 mile in third, but again, calculate your target rpm in third to verify the results you are looking for. If most of your running is going to be 1/8 mile it's probably better to set it up for that range in third and let the 1/4 setting rely on the fourth gear difference.
I'm running a 225 slant, 426 rear gears (open) and a stock truck four speed tranny. I'm turning right at 6000 rpm going through the 1/4 mile. I take off in second and use third and four. As far as the ratio's on the tranny, i have no idea. Robert
Launch rpm really doesn't have much to do with final gearing.......you are still wanting the rpm in the lights to be at your peak range. The launch will depend on which trans gear you use and how much you work the clutch or spin the tires. 1750# ....... Sounds like the car needs to see Jenny Craig.
You know, I guess I could have worded that better. All I need to know is From those of you that have made a pass with an inline-6. Say in the 125-135hp range. 230-235-250 chev, with stock internals, what RPM will it achieve (with a bit of common sense thrown in on it). What's on your tach when you're going through the traps? If they'll take 4500 all day long, and short blips at 5000, then 5000 is the number I need to work around for gearing. Or 6000, or 3500, whatever it is. I know that just because it will take it doesn't make it the shift point. I just need a basic idea for the first attempt at gearing, which is critical on a low power engine (to me). And I enjoy "bench racing" gearing solutions. (useless background story) I have 2 other manual transmission drag cars, and the slower of the 2, I have geared so bloody perfectly, that it's up to the atmosphere to dictate when I bounce the rev limiter crossing the line. on a good day, it's a smidge before the line, bad air, a smidge after, the rest of the time, it hits the limiter at the EXACT same instant I cross the line. I want and expect the same with this inline-6.
Our slant doesn't really relate to the old chevy 6 line but back when I was running N/S I was topping out about 4300/4500 on a bone stock 235 and it was definitely squeezed tight, real tight. Too tight to my ear, but I was (mumble) younger and rather more rash then. That's going to change with any engine building of course but I guess you could take it as somewhat of a starting point. You listed the 230/250 series in with the 235 but those should tach a bit better naturally. Rev limiter?
yep. Those particular cars of mine are largely "unpopular" here on the Hamb, so we'll leave it at that.
Little bit off the subject but ask Joe Hamby his feelings about a rev limiter. He didn't have one on his slant 6 and wasted a nice (read expensive) engine. You guys can preach "THE SPIRIT" bullshit all you want but your "SPIRIT" can get expensive. I'll probibly catch a bunch of shit for making the above statement but it's a fact...... a couple of the rules suck and need to be changed. Everyone wants this class to grow but the class isn't for racing, it's for parking the car in the pits and parking your fat ass in a lawn chair and BS'ing. Or building a weak-ass engine that won't make enough power to break anything. Now take your best shot but I'm not going to change my mind. Ron
No shit from me. Just trying to learn. Although, if somebody really did flip you some shit, would anybody you know (away from this thread) even care? imagine the "eye rolling" you'd get from your wife when you told her some anonymous dude on the internet called you a jackass... and you're actually pissed about it. My wife would call me a dumbass and walk off... ...lol... Jackass... learn to shift. If you're not smiling and chuckling to yourself over that comment, you took it the wrong way. I'm just trying to lighten the mood before it gets crazy. I'm imagining crazy shit to start in about...3...2...1...
awright, I'll take the bait. That's some pretty sour grapes your laying down, for a guy who CHOSES to participate here. If it's so terrible here, well.... Ok, two things. This reminds me of a conversation I had not to long ago with another potential HA/GR builder. You seem pissed that any of us would build "a weak assed engine that won't break anything" and seem to equate that with bs ing instead of racing. Do you suppose that's how the top fuel teams feel about all other classes? Is it not ok that some of us may have a different goal than you? Pretty much the only thing that can whup that Jimmy is another Jimmy, so where's the fun in that? might as well all build sbc's. I'll quit now.
You shouldn't change your mind. Nor am I likely to change mine. We appear to have differing takes on not only the class, but the sport as well. And there's room enough for it. I'll try to clarify myself. What I enjoy about HA/GR is what I enjoyed about N/S in the early '60s. It was cheap enough for us low bucks entries to have some fun on our local track and we could stay for the big boys' shows when they came around. That's obviously not what you want from it. There were those who just had to go for it all (and willingly spent what it took) in spite of a complete lack of prizes or money even in my own N/S class. When they showed up we all marvelled at their cars and had no quibble that they'd take first place. Hell, they'd worked hard for it and earned it. A couple of'em looked down their noses at us and our cars but we honestly didn't mind. They didn't hang out with us anyway and there were hitters who did, and who understood where we were at and had no problem with it. I left the sport when there was little room left for my outlook and had no wish to return 'til the HA/GR thing caught my eye. It looked like the fun I used to have so I built one. Not to chase a world record but to have some of that fun again. The records will be had by those willing and able, and with the passion, to take'em and hold'em, and I'll marvel at their cars. That's as it should be, just as before. And a couple of'em will sneer at my car and my take on it as before. Hardly news. Ron, from your posts you seem to be far more into what the SDRA's doing with its class and that sounds like what you want. You don't need more reason than that to make a change. Nor will I argue anyone's desire to take as few chances as possible with that much investment, both monetary and emotional. I'll only honestly ask why invest that much in something never intended to be what you like, rather than in something else more to your tastes up front? Because you're right, HA/GR wasn't hatched as an open ended racing class. It was meant to be what it is, a few guys having fun doing it the old ways. Fat ass, lawn chair, BSing, weak-ass engine. True to some degree, that's me (minus the fat ass). The HA/GR records are 12.10 & 120, climbing, and out of my reach, my fun isn't. I guess the "spirit" isn't bull to me, it's the point, rather than "kill to win" lust. But then that's my take. Vector', thanks for answering a simple question in kind. I hope my notes are of some use.
Whenver I read my stuff, It has an irritated "tone" about it. Not sure how it is that I write that way. I think it's because you don't get to see the smile on my face or my excitement, just bland facts that might be "disagree-able", and I apologize for that. It's not the case. I'm a fun guy, I want to have fun. On to the post. (get your reading glasses and fresh cup of coffee). ...lol... I think Ron is an excellent ambassador for this class. He has helped point me in all kinds of great directions via PM, and was quite generous with his time and knowledge. If I might guess at what Ron is feeling, "I'm here, built my stuff...where the hell is everybody...WTF?" I think if you read the History page, you might share similar thoughts. http://www.hambdrags.com/HaGr/history.html Everything on that page leads me to believe, "Buddy, get your stuff built, because we are on a roll, and you don't want to get left behind". I personally ordered something today from an alliance member... they hadn't heard of an HA/GR, and they post on the HAMB. We're kind of hidden. The "rules", such as they are, have netted about 20 cars since 2005. Maybe it would be okay to take a look at those rules more closely if the goal is to get more cars built and promote the "spirit". If that isn't the goal, then who cares, and it's fine as is. But I can't help but wonder about 71,000 HAMB members and we got 20 cars from "THEE" target audience for this kind of thing. Telling a potential builder that asks about a "blueprint" and tubing ideas for a car that he should just draw some lines in chalk on the floor and make it outta whatever is laying around (sounds romantic), but is a piss poor way to get a new car built for a new guy. And, a few of you guys have gotten a bit to "uppity" about the NHRA looking out for our asses, and that spooks builders. Some of you are our own worst enemies in promoting "the spirit". And a few of you need to lighten up with the we don't want "cookie cutter cars" stuff. I'd rather build a car that kinda looks like everybody elses, than invest a year and find out at my first race that my car does NOT look like everybody elses... what did I do wrong... is it safe? did I build the wrong thing? Is it even an HA/GR? Am I going to be shunned?! "Why didn't anybody tell me, this that, or the other thing". It wouldn't hurt the class to pop a few base dimension rules out there to stop confusion and debate. Mind you, 20 cars worldwide... is that a class? That's an observation, no disrespect intended to those that have done the work. And to some track owners, I can't help but wonder if they see our creations and wonder if they are watching a legitimate race car class or an episode of Junk Yard Wars. No disrespect on that. I'm building stuff, just like the next guy, I'm in the same boat and being judged on the "differences" of my machine and abilities. And I'll mention it again. If the goal was to get 20 cars built over 3-4 years with no flexibility or caring as to growth or new blood, But only that we are completely set on the "spirit" then we are right on track, and nothing needs to be considered. I'm not trying to be sarcastic. It's possible that we have ended up where Ryan wanted and everything is fine. Just my observations as my idea of "spirit" might be different. In fact my idea of "spirit" is to get people to the track, REGARDLESS of what the hell it is that they take. Warm bodies in pit lane is the "spirit", to me. A 90 year old dude at the track telling me about how he got laid the night he brought his first flathead to the track "back in the day", that's the spirit I want to see and talk about. I don't give a shit about the bug, really. It appears poorly built and frankly a piss poor example of a car, to me. There was some nice stuff then. I just want to build a car and take it to the track. I want it to look like the cars that inspired me to build it (that's you guys), not the bug. I wouldn't drive that bug thing to my mailbox. I get the "spirit" behind it, I do. But it's more the spirit of the people at the time, not the car. The spirit is vintage drag racing, it's more "definable" than chalk on the floor. If the goal is to reach people, if the goal is to create a community of a few HAMB folks with cars, then I'm utterly misinformed and ignorant of the goal. And I'm okay with that. You guys inspired me to build, I'm on board, whether it's 20 or 20,000. But I'm keenly aware of where this is going, for me. And it doesn't involve travel out of state. It may not be an HA/GR when it's done but I'm happy, AND THAT, is the spirit (to me). Ron, don't despair, I hope our stuff ends up as clean as yours. and if you got this far down the note and are thinking, "Bub, who the hell do you think you are..." I'll tell ya. I'm a guy that likes the concept, but is building largely in private rather than be told what I'm doing wrong when I asked and was told that maybe this isn't for you, because if you have to ask, you don't get it. In addition to being rude on the part of a few individual contributors, I think that's also hypocritical on my part. To come here, ask questions, and not contribute during our builds. But I'm a crap load happier not having to explain how I'm not in line with somebody elses interpretation of the spirit. <---Runs and jumps in a foxhole, and pulls the dirt in on top... although most have fallen asleep before they read this entire missive.
It's late, I'm tired, perhaps ranting. My apologies to anybody that made it through the read. I should have been out in the garage. Wife is going to an Elton John concert this weekend, I'll get some quality garage time.
I got into this when I saw the origional HAMB gas rails at the HAMB drags in 2005. I knew then it was a class that I would enjoy running and getting to know the guys that were running in this class. Since its conception, all of the origional cars have left the field and a bunch of new ones are showing up. Some have gone to the SDRA and seem to be having fun. The ones that have gone to the SDRA sanction seem to be the ones that want to build (for lack of a better term) high dollar cars. Some of them want us to think they have $2000-$3000 in their whole cars. From what I have read on this forum and I have been around drag racing my whole 56 years, I know that most of that is BS. Custom rods in a motor is not cheap. This is not what the HA/GR class was ever meant to be. If you have to run electronics of any kind to prevent damage to the motor, obviously you have built way too much motor. I have said this before and I will say it again, if you want to change the rules, join the other sanction that seems to have different rules. I do not mind the SDRA guys being on this forum, but DO NOT try and change the rules that were origionally laid out for the HA/GR cars. Some of us are quite satisfied with them the way they are. If we have "weak" motors and enjoy sitting around in lawn chairs(and I have not seen that at the HAMB drags), maybe that is the way we want it to be. If you take this as a slam to the SDRA sanction, then you are reading something in to this that is not there. I know some of those guys and enjoy BS'ing with them and enjoy their company. But the ones that I am talking about are not trying to change the rules for us. Now for the ones that want, "flame away" Robert.
everybody sees things differently and a lot of people don't have the capability of seeing a project in their minds eye and can't lay-out chalk lines on the floor and need plans right down to the starter button and there are others that would need somebody else to do the work,I have a customer the only thing he can do is change oil and he proud of that but he has 3 rides and it gives me work so I have money to build my projects.
The SDRA was formed when the ORIGINAL HA/GR rules were changed to outlaw automatic trannies, because some people thought it was an unfair advanage (extra weight, power drain and slipage). Enough said about that. Yes, some SDRA cars were (are) built with expensive parts (store bought) while others were built without these parts (homemade parts). People build with in there abilites and means. The cars that race at Tulsa cover both ends of the range and run very close races. Its not how much money that is spent on the car but, its more what you can do with what you have that determines the out come. If you would like to see what these classes started with go back to the beginning of this forum to the first posts of the HAMB drags shown. Take a close look at the pictures as they set the ground work for where we are today for both classes. Build it, race it, have fun. Then tell me if it makes a difference which way you went. I'll bet if your having fun it won't make any difference. SO BUILD IT.
Jackass......learn to shift. I like that, and I did laugh out loud when I saw it. Hi Vector, If you look up the thread (have you done a burnout?) I have tried to keep track of the cars that have been able to do that, and I can make changes to it when a new car makes it to that stage. I like your attatude, Build what makes you happy. There is only one of the three original cars that raced at Mokan in 1905, that is basically the same. Yes it does have a powerglide, and always has had it, that was legal in the first rules. I was in on that car, and for a while I drove it, and was the first to get down to 13.61 @ 94 mpg. The other two cars from that first year have been sold. The main thing that everyone likes about the Tulsa racing is that no matter how slow your car is, you are not elliminated, you can loose every time and still race all rounds.
Yeah,the first two cars are gone but we still keep a close eye on you guy's. It appears that nothing has changed since we have been gone, big horsepower and the most money wins. I miss you guys.
Wow! Cool. I'm hitting the bricks for Bakersfield, fired up the 'puter to check the latest weather and of course, the site. Looks like we're going to get wet. Looks like the class is still alive and well. Wow! Cool. See (sic) y'all Monday.
Hey joe you been the moon shine again we raced at mokan in 1905 and got94 miles to the gallon doing it damn that is record
Hey Ron, Did somebody leave a thumb tack in your chair? What got your blood pressure up? Did somebody sit on the wisords hat by mistake? LOL
like a moth to a flame, i'm getting drawn into this debate. i dont have a problem with a single stage rev limiter. its us low$ guys who benefit the most from one. a busted up engine hurts me more than a big dollar guy. learn to shift? a lot of us run cheaper parts that break. its just a safety issue to me. i'm not endorsing stutter boxes, two steps, multi level limiters,etc.... just a single to keep it a little safer. oil downs arent fun,remember. especially when its your oil.
It's nice to see that the passion still exists for these lowly cars and in the people who build them, I would hate to see folks getting bored here. My feelings are that the idea of a "plans built car" for the class would take the personality from it. The concept of "the Spirit" as I see it is for creativity in the design and trying to stretch the limits within the boundaries of the rules. If everyone built to the same set of plans, we might as well just be the baby brother to the "Econo-Dragster" class that rapidly grew away from any concept of econo. Like any other group, it is inevitable that there will be many different ideas of how the thing should be done and that should be part of what we do in our builds. After all, that is why most of us are Hotrodders. If we liked things the way that they came from the factory, we wouldn't be changing them. It just seems that there are two schools of thought involved with the idea of "Nostalgia Drag Racing". One group prefers cars built like they were back then, (I fall into that thought with the necessary changes needed for common sense safety) and the other side feels that a modern technology car built to slightly resemble the way they used to be is just fine, "because the people in the stands can't tell the difference", which comes across to me like saying that when all of the wolves are gone, just put dogs in the zoo because they are close enough and most of the folks couldn't tell the difference anyway. With that said, I can still diagnose and fix a points and condenser ignition problem, but keep your damn compooper away from my car, and I always felt a rev limiter was that thing on the bottom of my leg and will admit I have seen some missed shifts and broken transmissions, but never broke an engine in the process. Not saying it can't be done, just haven't had the pleasure. Build the car you want and race it and I'll build mine. Just remember, if ya ain't having fun, what the hell are ya doing this for?
well i choose to do this, know the rules and will build accordingly. it just seems that a rev limiter that you set is a win win for everyone. not mandatory, but for those choose. i realize these arent high rpm small blocks, but i just dont want to find out what happens when things go bad. but, i'll follow the rules.
the closes I've come to using plans to build is when I spent 2hr drawing on napkins to help a fellow racer build a car to bet me. but a lot of people have no idea were to start and they need plans that doesn't mean all the cars have to be built to the plans and playing follow the leader doesn't make you a winner.
The Jalopy Journal
