Guys, I chose the HA/GR class because I love the concept of 1950's type cars with old engines. I still like the HA/GR class but feel a couple of changes would make the class more attractive to potential builders and be more acceptable to most of the drag strips across the country. I fought hard to get our cars accepted at the local NHRA strip...to no avail. Unfortunately, most of the drag strips around the country follow NHRA rules. We can run exhibition during nostalgia races (2 per year) but we can't bracket race or hold a HA/GR event. Victorsolid expressed my thoughts and feelings about our class better than I could. Thank you. Mr. Mac, I have a lot less money in our car than you might think. Lots of work from all of my partners and LOTS of my days/weeks/months at the machine shop with NO pay. Our "expensive" rods are out of a 308 Hudson that Terry Groff from Frankfort, Michigan found for me. Expensive??? Hell no, just HOURS machining them so I didn't have to spend lots of money for custom built ones. CrkInsp, LOL....just trying to get people thinking so the class will grow and be safer. Underdog, YOU GOT IT !!!!!! I can't afford to replace broken parts. 64 Dodge, talk to Roy Merritt about broken parts. He went thru 5 transmissions and $1500 + before he finally went to an automatic...or have to park the car from lack of money. Back off the throttle???...that's not racing...... and it damn sure isn't Roy's style. I do want to thank all of you for putting up with my ranting and also for your constructive comments. My intentions are well meant, I just have a way of cutting to the chase and sticking my foot in my mouth. (I think I must be related to our Vice president, Joe Biden). Ron
I'm amazed at how level headed this whole thread has been. kudos to everybody. The car we've been building for my buddy... He's a working man on a budget... Alright.. the dude is seriously down on cash, but big on heart. He's to the "tranny" part of the car... We did the frame in my shop, it's back at his shop now, and will come back to my shop when it's roll cage time. He's been secretly agonizing to his brother that it's getting out of his budget, and he sucks with a manual trans. To the point where he doesn't want to make a fool of himself grinding gears on the strip (to each his own, I'm thick skinned.) But it was effecting and slowing the build while he saved money for parts he didn't have. I found all this out from his brother this afternoon. Long story short. I told him we're altering the rules to suit ourselves and we're putting an automatic in his car (which he already had). He's so happy, I thought he was gonna cry. Turns out that NOW he has all the parts to finish the car and before, he felt he needed another grand to get it done (which is tough to come by for him). I had no idea the manual was weighing that heavily on his mind and wallet. But turns out the blowproof bellhousing and all the related stuff I was adding to the list of things he needed to buy was seriously jeopardizing the project and his desire to complete it. He just didn't have the heart to tell me. This kind of explains (to me) all the foot dragging and slow building that's been going on since Christmas. He was afraid to bring up his financial situation, and a slow build was the answer while trying to save up a few bucks. I will say that it's a crap load easier on the build, and cheaper (around here) to scrounge up an automatic trans. Car will be safer for him too. No more handbrake. Brake is where it should be, left foot. 100% Back on track, dude is happier. And so is his "spirit". I'll bet that car is a roller in in a few weeks now. My "spirit" remains with the Muncie.
Victor, Thats part of "Build it, Race it, and Have FUN". You made him happy, and thats another car to go down the strip.
Anybody want to consider an automatic class??? Just kidding Good for you Ron for speaking your mind and all the rest of you that did the same. Dirve it like ya stole it!!!!! Dusty
Okay, here's a take on building an H?/GR in my particular corner of the country...Northwest Houston, Texas. Most of this megalopolis simply was not here forty years ago. I see from your locations that most of you live in cities that actually existed four decades ago. The last manual transmission in an American vehicle in Houston was in a Divco milk truck and you had to drive it standing up. I went to a dozen salvage yards here and they were universally owned by some nice, Hispanic guys who thought a 1997 Olds Cutlass was a really, really old car. I proceeded to drive nearly 300 miles following up Craislist leads on manual transmission that all proved to not fit my 235 bellhousing ( I had to drive to Austin, Texas, a city that has old cars, to buy the engine in the first place). When I did read articles on manual transmissions they had phrases like "I adapted the 11.2 inch zodiak input flanger to mate up with elongated 1967 crovine and while I was at it I machined a gluff collar to renorfus...." You guys got a lathe! here's a scoop. I ain't got no lathe and I couldn't operate it it if I did have. Anyway the task of assembling a manual transission car was too daunting. My buddy offered a Turbo 350 and I began my build. See SDRA car in Houston thread. I think everybody has to work with what they have available. If I don't buy it, I'm not gonna' have it. While I'm at it I would like to bemoan the fact that many of you have friends. Yeah friends... You may still live in the very area you were born and that's a good thing. However,some people have had to move many time in their lives and in the process their friend have died off while they were away. They may now live, like me, in an area of brand-new homes where nobody has seen an old car since Lyndon Johnson left office. So, when you have an old aquaintence who told you where you could find that one part you need and can "hold the other end" while you weld it in place reflect there are people who may lack that resource. I guess the moral of this is that everyone has different resources to work with. But, I ramble. I would just like to leave this thought for the well- intentioned people who can stick to manual transmissions and actually scroung real honest-to -goodness old parts. It has been a long, long time since manual transmissions have been more economical than automatics.
Butch, WELL SAID, and to the point....and a point well taken by the way. If it wasn't for friends, donated parts, friends with machining skills etc., we wouldn't have an HA/GR dragster. I was fortunate that my best friend ran a high performance machine shop. I helped in the shop so we traded labor. I also did some machining on Roy Merritt's engine so he could save some money on his build. That all comes under the heading of hot rodding. It's unfortunate that you don't have those things available. It would sure make things a lot easier. If there's anything I can do to help just let me know. Ron
"renorfus"... Laughed my ass off. Don't feel bad, I had to spend $3500 on an old truck to scrounge up the first 235 and trans.
Ron, I chose the class for the same basic reason. As for the NHRA rules, yes we have to live with them if we want to play in their park, and the cage and other things on our car will reflect that necessity, but the concept and design are still being built to the spirit as we interpret it with as many vintage parts as we can scrounge. About your "ranting, I think that we all have our "hot buttons" and tend to get passionate about our ideas and feelings.......it comes with the territory. I'll stay away from the comment about "relatives", we all have skeletons in our closets. Butch, I understand where you are coming from and will admit that here in So Cal we have the heritage and history of hotrodding as a plus, but with all of the freaking tree hugging liberals out here, most of the parts sources and "old car wrecking yards" have dried up many years ago between things getting sold out of the country for scrap to be melted down and turned into Toyotas or just melted and made into rebar here. I have no problem with the SDRA guys and love their "Big dogs, porch dogs" style of racing, but do feel that the rules for the HA/GR class are simple enough and don't need to be changed just to make the process easier. Perhaps what will evolve is a combined HA/GR and SDRA meet, but I really don't see the need to blend the two sets of rules to make everyone happy. Build what makes you happy and lets you race the way you want to. (As a side note, I noticed that SDRA is doing away with the four barrel carb next year.)
64, That was done as a way to get this more in line with the "Spirit" of the game. It was also a way of controling the use of "Pure" raceing carburators (read high $$$$). Some people were using the logic that a "4bbl is a 4bbl" with out regard to the cut off date that was given in the rules. If by the rules one car is running x# of 1bbl's should he have to compete with a car running the latest double throw down 4bbl with every concievable tuning option built in. If we let the high$$$$ carbs run then we might as well let computor control in. That is NOT the direction we or any of you want to go, I don't think. I'm sure there are people out there that would like to get in on the fun with us (HA/GR or SDRA) that don't know that much about these cars, their history, or even about cars in general, but would like to try thier hand at it. These people will need our help, so please don't let these car get to complicated with the use of exoitic($$$$) parts or we will not be able to hold thier interest. Home made(done it my self) parts are to be encouraged and smiled upon. Just my .02$
To answer the original question I ran a stock 270 GMC engine which would be close to your 235. I tried to shift at 4500 but many times it was over 5000. I went throught the lights at about 4600. The engine is still good sitting on a block of wood in my garage. The thing is if you lighten up the rotating assembly with aluminum pistons and longer rods you can safely go higher rpms. but with only 4 mains I would not exceed 5500. Just my opinion. As to the debate about saving the engines I agree with anything that will save my engine. If I blow an engine I'm through. I can only do this once because I don't have the resources to build engines over and over. I think I am like the majority in this class that run on a shoestring. I sold a 58 chev. to finance this and all the money is gone. Since I am retired and I budget I can't afford the cost of high dollar stuff, like Ron I work for Gary and he welds and machines parts for me. I think that as long as we keep it simple we can grow but if we start letting newer things slip in we will just be another class that fades away. The thing with SDRA is you can run a close to stock engine at 95 to 100mph and still have fun. This is the best way to do the racing ever, much better than in the old days. I think that this type of racing in Australia, California or Oklahoma is unique because if you look at each area of racing everybody is friends and help each other out. I can not count the number of times that some competitor has come up to me and said here is a tip on how to improve something. I think that we can improve the class as long as we can keep the goal in mind that we don't run off and leave the budget racer in the dust. Notice I keep using [I think] which means it is my opinion and like belly buttons everyone has one. Roy
this is probably an outdated method, but the way we used to do it is to determine the rpm that your horsepower peaks at and run through the traps about 300rpm higher than that. if your engine is stock for now, look up the factory specs and gear accordingly. hp peak,not torque. as you modify, your hp peak rpm will most likely go up. then you will need to change gearing. to fine tune,, bring another set of tires with different circumference with you to the track. make 3 passes with each and make a small gearing adjustment based on the results. just throw out any tire spin passes as that will pollute your results. again,,that is probably an outdated way to do it, but it worked for me.
Underdog, Its old but if you learn from it your ahead. If you borrow the wheels and tires its cheaper than the computor method.
Here I am, reading you guy's stuff again. My economy is even worse than last year and workin' even harder to keep the slack out. So, this ain't gonna be my year. But one of these days, one of these days. I'm gonna throw a Hudson at you Jimmy runners. There are some ol' school rev limiter options. Spring loaded rotors in your ignition, etc. Rev limiters aren't the brainchild of the solid state age. Go research some old VW/Porsche racing of the same age. Isn't the tech cutoff somewhere around '62? I have the feeling a rev limiting engine protector can be fabricated to mimic what was done in the past, an acceptable era for the class. Its just up to somebody to do it - then back it up with some proof. Hud
Hell, you don't need to prove it. If it's mechanical it's been done, likely on steam. I can think of five ways they did it just out of hand, I'm sure there're more.
I'm still around, I keep an envious eye on you guys. Since I've never run a legal track, never ever dealt with the dynamics of a "rail" of any type, I consider myself highly virginal in the whole topic. But, I do know vintage engines - and I suspect Ron knows how tough those Hudson rods are now too. I'm drawn to this class simply due to the vintage engines and the possible variety out there. Winning isn't everything, campaign what you have a passion for and you'll draw the crowd in the pits you'd really like to talk with. But yeah, I think the Hudson can be competitive and reliable. I was kinda hopin' Hiney and Co. was going to show up with one this season. Hud
Hud, I feel one of the secrets to the old flathead engines is getting as light a weight piston as possible. It reduces the load on the piston, pin, crankshaft (very important), allows a higher rpm for more Hp, and is a win-win situation. Since you dealing with a long stroke, small bore engine, filling the cylinder becomes crutial because your limited in valve diameter, max lift and intake ports.... all quite a bit less than desirable. Depending upon max lift a 30 degree seat on the intake valve usually has a higher average flow than your typical 45 degree seat. Intake porting also becomes a challenge since you need to relieve the block to get the flow, while the porting reduces the compression ratio. I don't feel a flathead design engine can make more than about .75 hp/cubic inch. A 320 cid Hudson would be limited to about 240-250 HP and a 296 cid Ford about 180-200 HP. I'm not sure what Smokey got out of his Hudson's but I think it was somewhat less than the Oldsmobiles were making. The Hudson's handled better so was faster with less power. It really all depends upon what a guy wants to achieve with his project. Going fast isn't the primary objective for me...however going as fast as I can with what I'm working with IS the primary objective. I would work just as hard if we had a 4 cylinder Model A engine in the car. The car wouldn't be very fast but it would hopefully be the fastest 4 cylinder Model A around. Build a Hudson and if I can help don't hesitate to give me a yell. Ron
Ron, I'm not going to contest anything you've stated in the previous post. With one exception, Smokey was getting 300+ from the Hudson. His only comment to me was 280-290 is easy, that last 10hp will cost a fortune and probably isn't worth it. I'm expecting to fall into that 280 range, but I'm curious as to the torque number I'll get. Valve diameter isn't a problem, the port confirguration isn't the problem, not even maintaining a decent compression is a problem. However, getting the air from the valve's edge to the cylinder - big problem. Thankfully, Hudson's don't have as much distance between the valve edge and the cylinder than most flatheads. About as advanced as an automotive flathead could get for its time. The biggest improvements I've ever noted on an inline is getting the carbs mixed out right. A person can run a few less potential hp, use them effectively, and still find his way to the top. I'll admit to screwing around with carburetors too much, but the whole enjoyment I find is doing something that isn't necessarily "off the shelf" easy. Probably most us haunting this section are in it for the same reason. Once you find your combination, its actually yours alone that some glitzy aftermarketer can't sell to the next guy. I appreciate the offer of help, you never know when I may take you up on that. Hud
Hud, I stand corrected. Not being familiar with the Hudson design I assumed they were about like all other flat motors. One has to remember Smokey's thought process went way beyond the normal gearhead and he got results unheard of from anyone else. He was my best friend's "Guru" and they talked all the time. 280 HP would be very good and the torque should exceed the HP. I think that would work very well in a HA/GR car, especially a "pure" HA/GR with a manual tranny. Damn....am I going to have to look for more power from my Jimmy? There's not much more I can afford to find. Any time I can help (and learn) let me know. Ron
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