how hard intricate is the engine swap from a 331 caddy engine to either a 500 or 472 caddy engine? How much fab work is needed to make it fit or does it drop in pretty easily? I am thinking about swapping out the engine in my 55 caddy
If you dont get much of a response try joining up Kustom Cadillacs of the H.A.M.B-Club social group. There are a couple of guys that have done it and are very generous with their help. They have helped me out tremendously.
I've heard that the biggest issue is with the oil filter not clearing the front cross member. The guy that runs Maximum Torque Specialties used to have a tech post on his website that showed how to do the swap. You might be able to overcome this problem by using an oil filter relocation kit.
Part of the challenge is the length of the engine... The remote oil filters are a bitch, and I eventually just cut an access through the front crossmeber to use a factory filter. Granted that my F-100 is a totally different application. I might recommend trying to find a 390 from a later Cad if more power is the primary goal...
hmm interesting thread. i'm doing the same thing starting this weekend. From what I gather everything should fit. My donor 472 is coming out of a 69 cad.
The 390 would be a WAY easier fit since it's externally the same or very similar. The 500 is not an easy swap. The external oil pump, the fuel pump, and the front sump oil pan all have to be addressed. Here's how I did it in my 1957 Cadillac. http://donshotrodpage.net/Project-57/Page013.html
Can you elaborate? Why would the smaller engine make more power? It seems counter intuitive but you must know something I don't (that's not hard). So spill it. Why do the 390's make more power than the 500's?
wow that looks way more intense than I had anticipated!! what is a good tranny to use with the 390? is there a sizeable power difference if I switch to the 390 or should I just go balls out and do the 500 swap?
Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by wsdad Can you elaborate? Why would the smaller engine make more power? It seems counter intuitive but you must know something I don't (that's not hard). So spill it. Why do the 390's make more power than the 500's? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Oh. Well that makes sense. Darn. I was hoping to learn something new today. It's already 10:00pm.
the Hydra-Matic you have in your '55 will work just fine behind a 390,as long as it's not a '63 which was one year only. '59,'60,'61,'62 Cadillac 390 will all bolt right up,otherwise get a kit from Bendtsen's or Wilcap to adapt a TH400 or 700R4.
They don't necessarily make more power in stock form, it's just a much easier swap. I had a friend build a 500 for his '49 and he was going to have to cut the firewall and/or severely modify the core support and front crossmember to make it physically fit in the engine compartment. A 390 is a huge power increase over the 331, and makes the same power firgures in stock form (300+ h.p.) versus a typical early 70's 472/500. The 390 was much closer to a drop-in swap, and he was still able to put a 200R4 overdrive behind it with an adaptor and has more power than expected. Just depends on what the end-goal of the car is. If a more facatory appearance under the hood is desired, the 390 is the way to go in my opinion. Todd
One side note, with the 390 you go back to paying "vintage" prices for the parts. Meaning they get a bit spendy and sometimes difficult to get. If you don't yet have an engine you might also want to check into a 425. Out of 77/79 full size Cads Less power than a 500 but will still walk and talk on the highway and come with turbo 400's behind them. I'd still go with the 500. It might be a bit of a chore to get it in the car but once you have it set up right you will be hell for happy with it. I'm after one to put in my 71 GMC for the pulling power with out breaking the bank. I may have to back up here a bit though as NAPA still shows pieces for a 63 390 as pretty much available. example, new waterpump for 94.99. That might not be so bad if you cna find one but they come in 59/63 cars so the pickings aren't going to be that good.
I'm with you on that one. I would love to keep the 331 or maybe even go after a 390 but the cost to rebuild one of those is fairly high. Thats why i decided to go with the 472..alot easier to find parts for.
Yep, I have two "cool" engines now and don't think the budget allows for a third. The 390 is getting or already in the collector car engine area where parts prices tend to go up in a hurry and availability goes down. It's almost to the point of how cool can you afford to be when it comes to engines.
would a 427 out of a 66 caddy be an easier swap? there is a guy selling one way cheap near me would that be a noticeable horsepower gain?
Ive got an 8 quart pan (rear sump) and a hivolume oilpump that is angled to clear most chassis. Had it on a 472 in an 81Regal. pm me if someone wants ta haggle a bit. These are both CadCompany parts.
i have been tingiring with this question and trying to study up as much as i can. 1) there were 4 different 390 designs 331,365,390, and (63) 390. the 63 390 had teh most proeblms but only because the engine had an oiling issue. not creating enough pressure after few thousand miles. the 390 of 59-62 was the best 390 engine, if you want to talk as far as power and reliability.they had grt oiling systems and and backed up by grt gearing in the rear and trans. 2) the 390 gains horsepower from either the dual-quad setup, or from the tri-power setup. there is a noticable difference from 2nd to 4th and 30mph to 70mph over the single 4 barrel. i have never had a edelbrock on a 390 so i cant speak for it. 3) the 390 was a good designed engine, but as far as this topic goes, it is awful when you want to go and rebuild it. the kits alone are teh price of cars. i have yet to find anyone who will touch the transmission. there are some high performace parts that you can add, but you will pay. you will also have to machine the heads. i havnt fouund any after market heads for this car. the 390 would be a great replacemnet for the 331 and you will have all teh torque and horses you need for a cool cruiser.
someone said they found a 66 cad engine for sale? be sure it is not a 66. from 64 to 67 cad had teh 429, which is a cross bewteeen the 390 and 472. it uses a different transmission bolt pattern and has a slight difference in length from crossmember to engine mount. its slight, ab inch and a half or so, but is different. the oiling issue from 63 stayed through 70. the water/oil pump form 63 is used through 67, the 429 is a redesignd 390 block. still even has the high rise manifold, if you look carefully. in 68 the 472 was a big jump in design and power, but the oiling system isnt as efficent as the oiling sytem in a 71 through 83 big block engine. that does not mean it is a bad engine, not at all. but as far as long hard pulls and performance modifications go, it will not last as long as a new model engine would. the 500 block will drop into the frame points on the any xframe cadi, but (like the guys said earlier) big issues will come in with the fuel pump hitting the frame, the oil pump, and the front sump pan. the rear sump pan used on teh 425 should help that issue, make sure to use teh oil pickup tube as well. i am looking at doing the same on my 58 fleetwood. i havnt tried to start the 390 but jus in case, i need to do some mocking up. the big block has a really wide deck, so i am afraid the engine will run into the ac system. as i go through it, i will try and post pics!
here are some pics which i hope help you guys out this 56 has a 500,using aftermarket oil pan this is in a 60,using a 425/368 rear sump pan. this is a project 60 vert i have, had 500, just to show how things line up after motor is taken out and mounts, trans , and exaust left behind.
here is the only picture i have of the cross member. if you look really closely you can see where the oil filter went was boxed. i havnt seen teh car in ab 3 years, its siitting at the farm, but i think it used an elctric pump for gas. the black 60 i found on teh net so i dont have much information on that one
do you have any pics of the 58? i have a 58 fleetwood with air ride and debatng ab the big bolock swap but thinking its gona be alot fo work, and not fit the theme i am going with. i was reaidng another topic hellspwan and saw you have 60? do you ahve a topics? did you put the big block in that as well?
DoubleCaddy is being Modest. He has the best thread going for a Cadi engine swap. Although he's installing a BBC in his Cad check out his thread. It's very informative and full of kool pictures.
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