276 Hemi rebuild.

Well I just got the lower end done. Crank set in, rear seal done.Connecting rods are old but installed new pistons, bearings and rings.The oil pump from Hothemiheads.com needed some work as the custom shaft collar was mashined too long. It held the pump up about 1/8". So I ground it down and all seems good now. I'm now working on the heads and the springs are stock but if I reuse them, I cant use any type of seal that fits in the inner spring. I bought some perfect circle seals but........ Anyway are the stock springs with no seals OK? The valves fit pretty tight and I wont be high rev'ing the engine, or is there a good drop in spring that can fit with the seals. Also the springs are tighter stacked on one side. Do the tighter stacks go to the top or the bottom? Now that I think about it, the gasket set came with some big rubber seals( umbrella seals?) But the perfect circle clip on the guide I believe. I'll have to check for clearance on those and see if the guide will need any machining. Anyway any suggestions?

 

Where did you get your pistons?...

 

Make sure you pay close attention to that oil pump. Been hearing a lot of horror stories about breaking shafts because of mis-alignment and non-hardened shafts. Any reason you didn't run a stock type? EGGE sells rebuild kits for the stock pumps for reasonable and the stock pump is guaranteed to work and provide enough oil to the internals. Just something to think about. I don't trust the oil pump kits at all that they sell.

Not sure about the two styles of seals you mention, but I'm guessing you need something there. Hopefully someone will have more input for you on your particular situation.

Good to hear it's coming together!

 

From Personal Experiance i would Replace the Valves with 1 piece Valves & have the Heads Machined for New Springs & Positive seals.

Valves are Weak Point in these Old MoPaR's as thet used a 2 piece Valve which "CAN" come apart.

I Ruined a Head & a STD High Compression JAHNS piston in any Early Drag Race 291 that was Built in 1960 due to Stock Valves.

Never Again will i use Stock Hemi Valves !!

OHH YES !!!

I second the Hot Heads Oil Pump, I had one & it would starve the engine of Oil upon Hard Brakeing do to the way they positioned the Pick Up.

I switched back to the Stock DeSoto Pump and Lost 5psi with a STOCK Hemi pump over The High Performance 340 Pump Hot Heads offered.

Just cus its made doesent mean its Better, Hot Heads even told me on the phone the reason they make this is because the 340 Pump is easily obtainable, NOT because its a better system.

Send the Stock one to EGGE & have it rebuilt !

 

First, Seals. The umbrellas should fit inside the stock spring, the PC type clamps around the guide but requires machining the top of the guide.

Second, Springs. When you say that you are using stock springs, do you mean the original stock part or a replacement stock part????

No matter how tight any budget is, the original springs should never be reused. If the rest of the engine is tired then the springs are too. We don't need to even start a discussion on how much better todays springs/material are.
With minimal effort a new spring, that matches the rest of the engine, can be installed.

X2 on the oil pump.

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Yes they are stock springs. I need to know what comp spring should be used? The lift of the cam is around .411 and duration is low like 208 degs.

I bought the pistons on ebay and they were brand new old stock. Mopar piston and pin ***embly kit from 1952.

 

There may be someone here that can give you an educated Guess, But i would take it to Your Machine shop With ALL YOUR CAM info so they can Calculate what you need.

Installed High, Compressed hight, Spring Rate & Diameter will a be factored by Machine Work & Cam Lift & Duration.

You may need to change Retainers to accomidate PC Seals or Spring ID

 

I just fired up my 341 for the first time and broke a rocker arm. No clearance issues, it was cracked and finally gave out. I highly recommend that you have your rockers magged. Bill

 

1- If a magnet sticks to the int. & exh. valves, don't use them.
They are old school type for leaded gas.
2- Umbrella seals go on the intake valves, exh. don't need seals.
3- close end of springs go on the head, not to retainer.
4- If you are not ever going to turn the "Motor" over 5 grand, you don't
need an inner spring.
Pic of my 55 270- .060" over Ross 10 to 1 pistons, balanced, decked, clearanced, 3/4 cam, double roller timing chain, 7 qt. alum. pan, Offy 3 deuce, alum. timing cover, alum. valley cover.
Bolted up to 67 short shaft T-Flite 727-A with 2500 stall converter.
Pertronics ignition module on a 57 dodge truck dist that has no Vac. Adv.
Have a spare D-500 dual point distributor for sale if anyone wants it.
Don mudchief72@msn.com

 

Once again, stock original or stock replacement ???

If you are buying a new spring your profile suggests 60-80 lbs on the seat and 200-220 lbs open at 1.7" .
Look at a stock spring for a 318-360.


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Afternoon Rabid, glad to see you're getting there, i have no doubt it'l be right. I'll be starting to work on my hemi soon, so you figure out all the do's and don'ts and then i'll bug you. Later, oj

 

I cant help ya on heads, mine were already gone through when I got mine

 

I just ordered a set of stock/street performance springs from Hothemiheads.com I probably paid $10 more but what the hell. They are in business to make money. My exhaust valves are stellite(sp?) and are non magnetic. My lift is just a bit more than stock and same as duration. As far as busting the head off of valves, these are new old stock and there are many many hemis that have a ton of miles on them with the two piece valves. I could see using stainless one piece if I had high compression and higher lift with way faster ramps on the cam and stiffer springs but as I said, 7-1 compression, and slightly more lift and springs are just a tad stiffer than stock. I am running way bigger/heavier springs in my stock Pontiac with high lift and stock 2 piece valves with 10:1 compression and I rev the piss out of it and do 11.75s in the 1/4 on nitrous. Been doing it for years yet I have heard that the valves are bad also. Just because one or two people out of 10s of thousands of people break a few valves doesnt mean they are garbage. And sure one piece stainless valves are better but so are forged pistons, ***anium retainers etc. How much you want to spend?

 

73RR - Are the "318-360" springs you suggested the same as 273-318-340-360 to 1988?...

 

The basic 273-318-360 (2-bbl) springs are all similar. The 360-4 bbl springs will be a bit stiffer, and the 340 spring a bit more yet.
Keep in mind that these will be slightly larger diameter, so are not one-for-one replacement, but they have the proper installed heights (1.2 and 1.7). Some of the bee hive springs are the best bet because they require less work but are more money. The LA springs are cheap but require a bit more work...
Guess it comes down to pay me now or pay me later.


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The Hemi oiling system isn't like a sbc where it slobbers the valves with oil. Umbrella seals work well on the intakes.... as was stated before you really don't need 'em on the exhaust.

 

The question is NOT "How much you wanna spend"

More like "How many time ya wanna spend it ?"

The engine i Broke a valve in was an Old Drag Race engine, The Stock Valves gave Great Service till i Leaned it over Screwing around with a Brand New MBZ on a Freeway On ramp & when i went for Third gear it let Loose.

But Hey, What do i know

The only thing i can be sure of is ALL my Hemi's will get S/S Valves.

Check HD Mad Dog Racing, They have a Quality S/S Valve for 1/2 of what Hot Heads will Soak you for & they are Up to Par with my machine shop & even had TRW or Seal Power part #s on them when i bought them

 

So the stock valve had to work with most likely a high lift cam with some very high spring pressure.
If it didn't have high enough spring pressure then you may have hit the high dome piston during valve float.
No wonder you broke it. Lets see, Old Drag Race engine with performance cam, performance springs and stock valves is what I am guessing.( Um, can you say missmatch? I am using a stock cam, stock springs with stock spring pressure and stock valves. If you use SS valves, you are also suppose to use bronze guides. Ampco 45 is the best material for SS valves but what do I know? LOL!
PS Desoto, I appreciate your concern but I really think that the odds are very slim to non with my cam and springs and low 7:1 compression. Now if I went with a billet cam with bronze gear, roller solid cam with .600+ lift and Arias race pistons, I would pony up for some SS one piece valves but then again, I wouldn't waste my money and time on a baby 276 CID hemi either.

 

Your are Correct in the Fact it had stock Valves & it Did have Iskederian Heavy Springs .. Dual as a matter of fact .. An Isky Cross Flow III cam Hardface Overlay & Chilled Iron Lifters.

Also had a Vertex Mag, Aluminum Flywheel, Crower U-Fab & 6 97's and so on... Was also Standard Bore 291 with Compression JAHNS Pistons, Ported Heads to Boot.

Was Built in 1960 and if you wanna call it Miss Matched, Thats fine ... But it did set a track record at Freemont Drag Strip in 1962.

I can tell you it was a Bad Muther ****er and was Wicked Fast till i broke it.

But then again, Im just a **** Talker on the HAMB so its your Dime.. If ya wanna Pinch it .. Im Cool With That...

I sometimes wonder why people even bring Stuff up if they have all the answeres already

No Offense Man .... DeSoto's Rule in my Book !

 

I went through Mad Dog Racing when I got the valves for my 291, great guys there, I think I paid $90-100 per set. I'm still in the process of getting my 291 together, I have a 276 as well which I found a set of NOS Jahns 10:1 pistons for... so I debating building that one. I had Isky grind the cam for the 291, took forever to get it back, but it's exactly what I wanted. I've been piecing parts together little by little for the 291, I got a bunch of stuff from Hot Heads at the Hot Rod Reunion last year just because I could see what I was buying in person, Bob helped me out a lot there, I did get a set of the "white box" lifters and I'm still tossing around the idea of running them or not... As for the oil pump, no way would I run a 340 one, the stock DeSoto rebuilt is great the way it is, and less prone to failure, same with the water pump IMO, that Chevy conversion pumps just look retarded as well in my eyes, I don't like *******izing parts on my hemi's, they lose their soul then! Good luck keeping the FIRE POWER lit!

 

Geez Rick, there you go, stirring **** again! A wealth of knowledge inside your mind. It's a shame that it isn't tapped more often.

 

I asked what type of springs to use for a somewhat stock 276 Desoto thinking I could get an answer here. I didn't period. So I ended up going with Hothemiheads.com but knew that I will be paying probably 20% more. I asked for an answer and never got one so.......... you saying I already had the answers is incorrect. P.S, I love the Desoto Hemi's also and am just ****oning up the short block. I have taken advice from you when I mentioned using the stock pistons and when I measured the ring side clearance (not the end gap) they were worn more than I liked. I think it was you that mentioned this clearance area to check. So new pistons were needed. NOS 1952 stock cast pistons that came up on Ebay as a buy it now for $179 that same day solved my problem. What a deal. So I dont have all the answers and thats why I post here.
Also I dont mean miss match as in the wrong parts for performance as the valves are the same size and flow close to the same as the SS valves. I mean missmatch as in using all performance pieces (strength to last with related performance pieces)and not using a part that should be used to match the rest of the build. Race pistons, race springs, race cam, bored, high compression and then " stock valves". Sure they may hold up for a time under the extreme conditions that this engine seemed to be built for but.........
I am building a stockish engine with stock parts. When I want to have performance fun I will get in my other car with stock 41 year old two piece valves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dTfMAH9UL8&feature=channel_page

Anyway I will get some pictures up pretty quick as its starting to look pretty good. I painted the block a gold color used on some later 50s hemi's.

 

Sorry that I wasted some bandwidth............I'll try to be more cautious...


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You better be!!! LOL!!

I was just posting the last for Desoto as he said {"I sometimes wonder why people even bring Stuff up if they have all the answeres already "}
I didn't have an answer when i started nor when I finished. I stated that my cam was reground for a small amount of performance gain. We are talking maybe 5 more HP or what ever it is. Its pretty close to stock. And then it changes to my NOS stock valves? As I pointed out, there are alot of factors involved why two piece valves will break. I'm not trying to break anyones balls and am always open to suggestions when it pertains to the original question. I know all about two piece valves vs SS one piece valves and dont need to be schooled about this subject. In my application(stock) there is no need for SS valves, as all manufacturers building domestic cars back in the day used these. On the other hand in a performance application as in Desoto's case, he or the builder before him should have used them as the end result showed.
Long live the Desoto hemi's!!!!!! Even with the two piece valves!!! LOL!

 

Well, Sorry if you think i was Busting Your Balls but i just hate to see someone Fall Victim to the same thing i did when i THOUGHT waht was in there was Fine since it WAS a Drag engine and such.

But if you look at my Second post i suggested you take your Cam Card to your Machinest and they can Calculate EXACTALLY what you need while rebuilding the heads.

Also you could ask the Cam Grinder & he should be able to tell you what Seat & Open pressure you need and then you can Cross reference to the I.D~O.D. & Installed Hight from any good Sping MFG out there.

Last 330 heads i did & a 292 Y-Block i had the Head Guy at the Machine shop Installe NEW Springs that matched accordingly to the Cam Grinders Specs.

Good Luck on that DeSoto .... Im gettin ready to do another MEAN 291 for my '54 Ford Straight Axle Car.

 

No problems here Desoto, just a friendly discussion. I am making progress and it is looking killer!!!! Decided to paint the block and heads a gold color. Not real glitzy but cl***y looking with a gloss black pan. I'm now deciding on the valve covers. Thinking like a stock grayish silver.
I appreciate your input . I actually only had to lap the new valves in as the seats were great. I'm thinking this Hemi had fairly low miles. The cam grinder was Delta cams and they did give a bit more lift and duration but not much more. Thats why I was going to go just with stock springs but didn't get a part number here and thats OK. Thats why I called up Hot hemi heads as they have the springs for a stock/performance application that is a drop in apparently. I am starting to wonder about them as everything that I have bought, I had to slightly modify to fit.
Man for a little 276, they sure look big!!! Anyway, thanks everyone for the advice. The internet seems to always come across as gruff talking but be ***ured, thats not how I am and not how I take most comments. I have done all the ***embly and only had to hone the cylinders. I have polished the crank, mic'd out every piece and basically am doing most everything on my engine. I am just waiting for my springs to show up so I can start ***embling the heads and bolting the top end together.
I'm looking at modifying a Pontiac distributer as it is so close to length with the cam gear removed and I have about 10 of those. I will need to make a collar but thats about it. Also I think I will also make my own intake. Just a 3X2 one. or even 2X2s. Time will tell. I think at first though i will just rebuild the stock 2 bbl and break it in and drive it for a while and then tackle that during some winter. Thanks again!! The 3 Window Whippet coupe with a Desoto Hemi. I like it!!!

 

Don't think you have Much luck with that Pontiac Dizzy.

Pontiac turns Counterclock wise .... DeSoto's turn Clockwise.

You need one that turns Clockwise .. Like the LA Chrysler.

 

DUH I should have known that. It could be done but all the mechaical weights and basically the guts would need to be replaced. I had a Mallory dual points dizzy for pontiac that I used the cap off of. Funny how close the Mallory and Chrysler dizzys resemble each other. I grabbed the Pontiac one to show how similar they are and that gave me the idea when I held the them beside each other. I guess it was one of those ideas that goes into the trash bin, unless I just gut it all but then it becomes a waste of time. Do the LA distributers just drop into the low decks??

 

I understand its REAL Close, I do not know the exact differences cus i use a Vertex Mag in my DeSoto, And in my next DeSoto, And my 389 Pontiac, And in a couple Future engines cus i have some other stuff on the shelf.

I guess Hot Heads sells whatever you need to do it, But i havent been to Impressed with Hot Heads conversion's So i dont buy much there anymore.

 

I'm with you there. Like I said, I have to modify most of their stuff for it to work. When I bought my Pontiac transmission adapter, it was drilled for Chevy only? They list it for B.O.P.!!!!! I had to drill the extra holes. Then the upper ears where the Pontiac differs from the Chevy, there was barely enough meat left for the Pontiac holes. Whoever did the finishing ground too much off. You would think that they would just drill the extra holes on the Chevy adapter to fit BOP. Would it have been that much more work? There has been a couple other items also like the oil pump, and the timing chain that was suppose to be stock and wasn't.