We've gone off on a tangent in the Flat'liner's thread. I thought we needed a separate place to air this out. What's a legal carburetor? Here's the rule: 16. Era specific carbs only, stock appearing- no modern Holley, Edelbrock, or other aftermarket carbs. The question arose if Weber DCOE's and other side-drafts produced during the target era are legit in HA/GR. Judging by the information presented in the other thread, the DCOE more than qualifys as era specific (even when I previously thought it wouldn't). I'm really neutral on this one. The thing I wouldn't want happen is to get built, then find out I'm not allowed to play. What say you? Hud
I say run 'em. when you spank the snot out of me at the track and begin to feel guilty for handing me my ***, then, and ONLY then, should you take them off. Do YOU feel they offer a competetive advantage in a modern way that is not within the ideals of the cl***? ... Cuz I don't.
I have to agree, I've reversed my opinion on this. 97's info has clarified what I now believe were ignorances on my part regarding post war foreign carbs and a misnomer I was working under. My basis is that rodders (of every era) are apt to use anything they can lay their hands on (occasionally even illegally ), and apparently these were there to be had at the time, whether rare or common isn't pertinent. Concievably even period aircraft carbs should be good to go, there were plenty of those about. Hell, rodders adapted a variety of puffers for the purpose long before they were common in the auto industry. As a side note, I think it'll be cool as hell to see the same sort of variety in carbs that we're trying to promote in engines. For our own car, we're kicking it around in light of that and will likely come to a firm decision when we put the "real" engine in. Myself, I'm still leaning toward the SUs, I have a history with Amals and Bings and some Kei Hins, I've always liked side ****ers. If it still bothers you individually, all you need do is do***ent the period application of a given type and run'em the way they were then to satisfy your reticence. That's what we did with our HIFs, we deleted the modern (mostly smog stuff) features, including the "choke" circuitry, and run'em with only the ****erfly, jet, slide and needle, like an H model but without cold weather capability (we don't race in the snow much in SoCal anyway).
Like you guy's said, anything was used, aircraft, boat, or whatever, the rule says Era Specific. So I don't care if you run one off of a P51 Mustang, you still need that motor to handle it. so Era Specitic is all that really counts.
I have no problem with someone running them. I know that we can and some are, running four bbls. In the future I would like for us to consider not running them. I think the cl*** is more suited for multiple carbs than running a four bbl. The Austrailians have already added that rule to their sanction. The more odd ball carbs that someone can come up with, the more diverse the cl*** will come. I thought about running motorcycle carbs on mine, but they would not be era specific. Robert
Hud, I say run them. However, I don't envy you the tuning problems, and cost's for jets, etc, that you'll have. The idle circuit can be especially bothersome on Weber carbs. Ron
Hud, Years ago, '60's, I ran a set of Web's on a Gen 3 6cyl. 292 in a '62II, on the street. I had as much($) in the carbs as I had in the rest of the eng. I had a hip roof tool box, double tier fold out, full of parts needed to keep them in tune. It ran good part of the time, if I could keep up with the weather. Finally gave up and went with Roch. 3x2's, much easer. If you can have better luck, give them a try.
I seriously doubt I'd have better luck. That parts pile, does scare my pocketbook. I'm constantly tinkering with my carbs anyhow - it might be a good matchup for my demeanor. A bad hair day with the webers (which would probably be often), could definitely put Moparsled out in front of me. Which is kinda the fun in all this - isn't it? I think I will have a plan-B. Three Carter WGD's. Now if I can find a way to re-bend AFB metering rods? You guys are the coolest, ever. Hud
What?? They didn't have motorcycles in the '50s?? It seems to me there were lots of them back then and they had carbs of various sizes that worked pretty well. Want to be different? How about 6 Amals on that slant. Want to be really different? Build an updraft system with multiple Model A Ford carbs, or use Stromberg or Marvel/Shebler aircraft carbs, they even have adjustable mixture controls. There are lots of different options out there and imagination is the only thing holding us back.......well, imagination and money.
different is a 'bad' term.....just ask the 'two headed man' if he likes being different.... money is always, a challenge, but I feel that the biggest limitation most people have is imagination......that and common sense Re: carbs & 4 barrels etc, we get people arguing the point, that's why we've (here in oz) said no 4 barrels etc (although the 12 sec thing is an influence as well), and realistically, most people who 'get it' would rather have 4 x single carbs then 1 x four barrel, and that's what we encourage. Cheers, Drewfus
If nothing else, more is better and was the general trend back in the early days. Nothing says Hotrod better than an intake with a bunch of carbs on it. Four small carbs just look better than one big one.
I really think you are worried about nothing, Webers are easy to tune and will stay in balance forever if they are set up correctly. That is a linkage issue. As far as tune goes , once you have the emulsion tubes,venturis and auxiliary venturis sorted you will most likely never need to change them. For drag racing I can't see you ever needing to change idles, pumps,or idle air . Main jets and main air correctors can be changed in 2 minutes ( three carbs), the only reason to change will be elevation of different tracks and barometric pressure/temp according to your weather station......in other words the same things everybody else changes on every other fuel system IF THEY ARE SERIOUS about getting the last 100th of a second and last mile per hour from the car......... I don't think that is the aim of HA/GR....
Hey 97, I have a trio of 45 DCOEs tucked away that I'd planned to put on my bucket (225 slant), reminiscent of Tex Smith's XR-6 set-up (just the engine, I liked Smith's original sketches better than the Swaja show car ), mostly for the cool factor. You're giving me the willies about consistentcy for the street. Are these things finiky enough to be a problem in daily applications or can they be set up for that as well. Or would I be better off leaving the SUs on.
97 Your statement the only reason to change will be elevation of different tracks and barometric pressure/temp according to your weather station was what caused all the problems. Believe me I didnt make the changes for the fun of it. Like I said a big box of parts. Balancing the carbs. was the easy part. Just make a three tube manometer with the tubes next to each other on a stick.. That makes it easy to see where you are carb. to carb.. Bring in the screws in the links till all water columns are equal. Then set idle speed. I used a extra arm on each carb. with a removable link to a fixed point, this made them easier to sync up. Injection (mech) was the most difficult to run on the street as it only wanted to run good at low rpm or high rpm but NOT both. It was a real pain with the automatic. Correction--- after rereading my earlier post it should say 65chevy II.
No worries , for the street I am sure it won't be a problem. I would prefer 40s on a 225 for the street , however I know the 45s will work . As far as changeing jetting etc it might show maybe if you set up in LA and went to the rim of the Grand Canyon above Flagstaff , or up Pikes Peak or Denver etc.You might notice it getting a bit rich . It's no different to any other carb they all notice the different al***ude.... You would retune if you were going to live there , but put up with it if you were going for a day trip or a vacation. Racing would be a different story I suppose. I am doing a set of three DCOE 40s for a friend's hot rod, powered by a 225 sloper now. I will let you know how they work out. SUs self regulate to a point, but they like any other carburettor have a range which they are effective within, after that needle changes become essential for optimum tune.
I understand what you are saying, it is no different to the guys running Holleys on comp cars, they all have a big box of jets, powervalves etc , in fact there are some who have converted Holleys to run Weber jetting .... I still cannot see an issue for HA/GR . Maybe I am not "compe***ive" enough?? Balance is easier than building a three line manometer, 40 bucks will buy you a SK Synchrometer Mechanical Injection on the street is the Holy Grail ... I think every fuel /carb/injection guy I know would like to be the one who solves the problem. Beleive me I have a big box full of failed experiments in that direction, and I am not finished yet.
Just revisiting this part of your previous post, I presume you are refering to bending the mounting end of the new Edlebrock/AFB rods to fit the WGD rod hanger? Not possible I would think...well not consistently viable anyway. However .. Somewhere in my parts searching I read a catalog recently that a place in New York ( I think) makes repro WGD WDO and A-1 style rods and gauges, will try to find the info for you.
I ran a pair of Scott 97 injectors on a street driven flathead Ford back in the mid '60s. The biggest problem I had with the setup was starting until I figured out ya just needed to leave the fuel pump turned off until it was cranking over so it wouldn't flood. They actually ran great and the throttle response was awesome. Probably not the best setup, but it sure was fun to see the look on the gas station attendants when they would open the hood to check the oil. Miss the old days when they had "full service" and the guys pumping the gas were mostly car guys who understood instead of semi illiterates who can't make change without a computer telling them the amount.
97 The SK part would have been nice, BUT, I didn't have one so we (Dad and I) used what we had or could make. If I remember correct (long time ago) we spent about 3$ on this tool. It wasn't a work of art and wouldn't fit in a carry around tool box but it was very helpful.
I actually have some Marvel-Schebler 2 barrel sidedrafts. They came off early 60's M***ey-Ferguson combines running flathead and slant 6 mopars. Yes, they do have main jet needles just like regular tractor carbs. I thought them really odd, but when I inquired of my tractor part supplier he said they could be had real cheap from his remanufacturer. Not big enough to run IR, but would work on a log type setup. I suspect 3 of them would run a flathead mopar like the ****ens! We actually did set one carb up for a friend running a 292 4 barrel manifold in the outlaw antique cl***. His engine wouldn't top 4000 rpm with it under any cir***stances. I now wish I had a vacuum gauge reading from his tractor, then I'd know fairly close what it was flowing. I think I'm kinda like most of you. I love to see the odd/ingenious stuff come out to play. Sometimes a fairly rigid rule, such as the pre-62 engine, forces you to think a bit deeper than normal in the pursuit of performance. I completely enjoy that. 97, I hear you on the webers. I'd like to give them an earnest attempt. I bumped into Todd Martin at the HRR and had a good talk with him. I was mainly listening to learn. One of my statements was along the line "My inexperiance at drag racing will keep you guys ahead of me for a long time". Very true. However, just the sound of these old engines getting stretched out down the track, is enough for me. Hud
Hudsonator, It was real nice to meet you at the Bowling Green event. I hated it that I had the only SDRA/HAMB car at the event. I was overwlemed with the responce the car got. Their is a real love for this type of car with the fans. As far as your carbs holley was around way before 1962, make it easy on yourself and just run one.
I really appreciated the conversation and the courtesy your whole crew showed this plowboy. I also got to meet Dave "Bear" Jones and we talked Hudson for quite some time over at my own car. I was parked right in front of the HAMB meet n' greet. You Oklahomans are having quite a influence on me, I'm trying to schedule a trip out ya'lls way to one of the SDRA events. I can't make the 26th - but me and the wife are looking on out. Maybe the double-do of Tulsa and Mokan in August? I run a single 4 on my driver, which was at the HRR with a digital A/F meter hooked to it. It is simple, but I didnt' realize how much the cylinder mixes actually varied until I hooked the meter up. Beech Bend would likely be my home track, and as we discussed, if one of these vehicles were to start showing up there - it would catch on like wildfire. Hud
What kind of diversity is out there already? Is everyone running Rochesters? Any monojets out there, or is everyone running some form of a 2gc? Any other Ball&Ball or Carter fanatics out there? Man, I'm stretching it huh? I've got carburetors on my mind lately. Hud
I've got 2 Holley 1920's on the stock 225 slant six. When the engine is modified I'm anticipating using 2 or 3 Carter BBD's. I have yet to learn the CFM flow of the BBD's. Anybody have that information???
Bob, The best info I can find is as follows: Carter BBD: 1.5"Hg 3.0"Hg 1 barrel 141 cfm 200 cfm 2 barrel 202 cfm 285 cfm Ron
Thanks for the carb information, Ron. I'll run this by all you Atomization Device experts: A retired engine builder who is occasionally on the HAMB has a bored 225 slant 6 in a dragster. He recommened carbing a slant 6 like it was an 8 cylinder. For instance, a 225 cu. in. 6 cylinder would be the same as a 300 cu. in. 8 cylinder. Therefore, use as much CFM as would be desired on the 300 cu. in. 8 cyl. If the engine is built to about 275HP, then up to 600 cfm, for racing purposes could be utilized. Agree? Disagree?
bob, I'm running two Carter BBD's on my slant and it is actually running on the lean side. I also have a blown slant in a T bucket with a 600 Holley on it and it runs fine. By the way, the single bbl Carters are know as BBS. The two bbl is BBD. The S is for single and the D is for dual.
Bob, I'm running 3, 250 cfm Rochester 2 barrel carbs on our 321 inch GMC and it works great. I realize I'm over carburated (750 cfm total) but I built progressive linkage so it runs on the center carb around the pits and during staging. I think 500-600 cfm would be about right for your engine. Ron
I am running lean with my engine so I took the carbs up to Garys and we flowed the jets. Let me tell you there is 2 to 4 percent difference in jet flow even though they are stamped with the same number. Gary uses a ream on the jets so they all flow exactly the same. I'll see what it does at Tulsa July 10th. All my jets on my jet board now say how much of a percentage they flow over the one before. I always bought jets and figured they were perfect. Roy
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