I lost the front brakes on my El Camino, while towing a car on my car trailer, but was able to stop. It was a bad brake hose, and if it had been a single MC, I would have never been able to stop.
Unless you've had a single master system fail on you, the debate can go back and forth forever. You really have to live the "oh ****" experience to be polarized one way or the other. I had a line go on a '65 Belair wagon, luckily the e-brake worked and I was going less than 30 at the time. Donor parts from a '70 Impala were a virtual bolt in and I was back in business shortly. I'm fortunate it didn't happen at night when I had a stock car on a trailer behind me and a Snap On chest full of tools in the back of the wagon. Bob
OPERABLE EMEGENCY BRAKE.On a one pot or two,the horror stories of not being able to stop seem to have ignored an operating hand brake.
I had a '62 Buick skylark with single pot. Hit a major pothole and clipped a break line. NO BRAKES!!! Ran a red light at 35 MPH and got into a parking lot where I could circle until the car stopped. LUCKILY no one was hurt. DO NOT leave that thing in there unless you are building a museum piece!
Keeping a single MC for authenticity? Better hope the guy in front of you thinks the same way. Trouble with driving today is that you can't maintain safe distance, you leave a safe gap and somebody will pull into it and cut you short.
No singles for me. Traditional or not... I prefer as much safety as I can practically incorporate into the design.
I lost the brakes in a 65 Galaxie and a 54 ford pick up. Both times I was lucky no damage it's not worth the chance
Lost the brakes going downhill in a 64 3/4 ton Chevy and darn neer T-boned a cady at the 4 way stop...and I was down shifting and smokin' the rear tires. Freaks you out when the pedal goes to the medal. I drove my Dart for many years with 9" drums and single MCs..boy was that scary around DFW. Fading brakes...who ever called this car a GT is nuts. I upgraded to 75 Dart disc brakes and dual MC and rebuilt the front end. Put a anti-sway bar on it and now I can call it a GT. Handling and stopping are a priority to me. Right after I did the brake conversion I had to panick stop. My buddy told me the brakes just paid for themselves right there. Part for Darts are hard to come by.
I lost a rear line due to rust thru on a dual chamber MC equipped car. That experience when I was young was enough to make DAMN sure all my cars have dual chambered MC's and all the lines are routed for safety, and maintained, both hard and rubber. That said, you single pot proponents hit me and hurt me cuz you lost your brakes, I don't care if we are car guys, I'm gonna make you pay for your stupidity.
Man, I think a few guys are taking things a little to personal, your l*** comment in particular. As you can see by my previous post I am not convinced that a dual master is any more reliable anyways, especially as 90 percent of conversions are done, excluding the differential pressure switch and or supposed "safety valve". I'm also curious to hear how much of a line failure you had. Was it more than a pinhole and how much braking capability was remaining? Also, does anyone have a dual master equipped car they would like to experiment with by opening a bleeder on one end and leaving it open to see if there is any usable brake pressure left? If so, please mention whether the setup includes any components between the master and the wheel cylinders and be safety conscious. I don't want to argue, just get some facts.
Total rear line failure on my OT daily driver. Line broke into 2 pieces, no warning, in the middle of a hard stop. Fortunately was able to complete the stop and not hurt or hit anyone. Braking power decreased by around half, maybe more. It's been 14 years ago, but the panic and terror I felt back then has stayed with me. The front chamber of the MC was dry by the time I got home, blinkers on, driving very slowly, and was only 2 stops from the house. I shoulda stopped and not drove the car but I was ignorant, 18, and still invincible, right? Fixed the line, re-bled the MC and rear brakes. Car stopped just as good as before. Not on purpose but had the left rear bleeder not tight all the way on my 60 Buick right after I'd finished rebuilding the entire brake system, car stopped great till ran out of fluid in the front chamber again. Then same deal, braking capability greatly reduced but still there. Recognized what was wrong and just pulled over in a parking lot and did not drive the car until after fixing the issues. The Byooik stops great for being nearly 5000lbs and being a pretty much stock 4 wheel 12" drum setup. She'll stop quick and straight if I need her to. No pressure switch, no valve other than what's in the MC, and I am running a vacuum booster. Been in a couple other vehicles that have lost either fronts or rears on a dual chamber setup. And all 4 incidents ended up being a bit hair raising, yes, but most importantly, the vehicles still had stopping power, enough to get the vehicle to a safe spot till the repair could be implemented. My last statement does sound personal for a reason. I've got family to worry about and take care of. You hit me, hurt me, take away my capability to provide for my family, then guess what, I believe it's only fair that you get that responsibility.
I suggest a duel master for sure. I would do this before any cosmetics on something you really drive, unless it is a show car out to make a statement. It is just common sense.
Thanks for the info, also I admit I didn't fully understand your final comment before I wrote my last post.
Good point, over here if you don't have a fully functioning emergency/parking brake. You don't get on the road. Simple as...... We have a yearly inspection (MOT) and the parking brake must p*** a rolling road efficiency test. NO GOOD,NO P***!
This also brings up another concern I have and that is bore diameter. Quite a few local rods are running early Ford brakes with large diameter wheel cylinders. Some only on the front and the majority have the Mustang masters that Speedway likes to push, which have a 7/8 or 1" bore, if I remember right. The majority seem to almost run out of travel before the pedal gets hard, no matter how well you bleed or adjust the brakes and if one side lost pressure, forget it. And yes, they all have plenty of pedal travel and residual valves. A guy I know asked a local wise man, what might remedy this and his response was, "What would Henry" do. Well it seems Henry used a master that had a bore of 1/8" or bigger. So the guy hunted down some dual GM truck variant that was equivalent, that did the trick, but I wasn't there when he bled his brakes, so I'm still curious if it would also show a better result in event of failure than I have seen so far with duals. I have seen a few cars with mustang masters that worked well, as far as pedal feel goes, but they had F100 or aftermarket Lincoln brakes w/a late model rear, which have a smaller wheel cylinder. Lastly, if you're going to put a dual master on an early style hot rod, with an open engine compartment, please stick it where the sun don't shine. Under the floor.
I was 9 or 10, but I remember this like it was yesterday. I went to the Detroit Zoo with a friend of mine. His mom had a '62 VW Beetle. On the way home and coming to a light at 40 MPH, my friend's mom found she had no brakes. Pumped it once, twice, three times and grabbed the E-Brake. Locking up the rears, the car did a 180* turn before coming to a stop. There was a brake shop on the corner and two hours later we completed our trip home. No, I didn't see the invoice or was told what broke. But I'd never want to experience that kind of panic on my own. I have a dual M/C out of an Avanti II for my Daytona.
If it's just the 'look' of a single pot master cylider you're after, I'm sure my 70's Triumph had a large single opaque plastic 'pot' with a black screw on top sitting on top of a dual master cylinder unit. The single pot was divided up the middle internally and fed both front and back cylinders with fluid. It looked just like a large single pot. I looked for a pic but can't find one, but I'm sure you'll find other makes of car or truck that are the same. I have clear memories of running out of brakes in my 41 Willys while rolling downhill toward a red light with a shiny new car already stopped in front of me. I'm not exactly sure how I managed to stop the car, the e-brake was all but useless, and I reckon I pumped the brake pedal often enough to work the brakes on air pressure! Cheers, Glen.
I have only one vehicle with the single master cylinder still on it and when it needs attention it wil be replaced with a dual,I have driven many miles with the singles and if you decide to keep it make sure the emergency brake is working.
The one I used on my '51 Ford is like that, a single pot that's divided inside and has a metal lid with a screw through the middle. It was from a 67-68 GMC 1/2 ton PU.
Use an underhung frame mount modern dual bowl setup, and hang a single bowl M/C on the firewall for looks.
you will crash. i will be sad. please dont taken anyone else out. I honestly almost died and so did three of my friends on one occasion to the pile up. nine months later I almost died again with another firnd who is also a HAMBer. twice in two years is not a coincidence my friend, it's a wake up call. by the way, ECI makes a pretty nice underfloor set up
If you ask me don't cheap out where safety is concerned.... But this is coming from a guy that drives a '55 Buick/bias ply/single pot/no seatbelts.... So I probably just wasted space by adding my two cents.
so heres my story, i think i was about 19, i'm 49 now, it was friday nite and that afternoon i bought a 1946 chevy pickup, nice green paint and chrome grille, looked stock, i drove the truck home and gave her a nice wash job and after dinner i drove up town to the plaza where everyone hung out, pulled into the parking lot behind a car and when i steped on the brakes no brakes, pedel went right to the floor, smashed into the car infront of me locking bumpers, smashed the grille and fenders back about a foot or so, had to ask some of the 50 people standing around to help lift the car off my bumper, no damage to the car and the guy was cool and no trouble from him at all, tried the brakes again and they worked fine, drove home brakes worked fine the whole way, next day i hammered the dents out as best i could and drove the truck for two years no more brake trouble, fluid never went down, never figured out what the hell happened, would i build a car with a single master, no, would i drive one yes but i will always pump the brakes before i need to stop i dont think i would be able to stop myself, just a reflex now.
Will a dual brake system prevent ALL accidents due to system failure? No, but here is how I think about it... A typical brake system will work with the front brakes doing about 70% or 80% of the stopping. In a single system a person will experience 100% brake failure 100% of the time when there is a hydraulic failure in the front brakes, and will experience a 100% brake failure 100% of the time when there is a rear brake failure. In a dual system a person will loose about 80% of their braking capacity in the event of a front brake failure, and about 30% of their braking capacity when there is a rear brake failure. The chance of 100% brake failure is very, very, slim. Chances are quite good in a rear brake failure that the car can be stopped safely, and chances are fair in a front brake failure that a driver will be able to stop without incident. The way I see it, a dual system IMPROVES safety (in the event of system failure) better than 75%, and NOT just 50/50 that things look on the surface. (mainly because about 1/2 of the total failures will be rear brakes only, huge statistly as this relates to safety!) The conversion to a dual power M/C for my 55 Lincoln cost me about $200.00 in parts (including EVERYTHING), about 4 hrs labor for brake lines , mounting, and pedal ratio change. I drive this car everyday. If the conversion only made me feel better about stopping in traffic it was worth the time, effort, and money. But fact is, the safety improvements are worth a LOT more than peace of mind. My opinion is that a single M/C is ok for a seldom driven concurs restoration, a trailer queen, or a show car, a "driver" NEEDS a dual M/C... Everyone agrees with me right?
After much thought, I have come to the conclusion that ***uming the same stroke, the same bore dual as single works fine in a pinch. The Treadle Vac I took out of my Lincoln had a long stroke with a 3/4" bore, I installed a m/c with a 1" bore and "typical stroke". This required changing the pedal ratio by moving the pivot point up about an inch. This all works well with my stock drums. It is all about making the leverage right while having enough pedal to do the job.
is there a good MC (dual) to bolt in place of the single under floor set up for the 53-4 chevys? just the MC..I dont wanna go thru installing an entire pedal system when there isnt anything wrong with my stock pedal system..just would like the reliability and safety of the dual MC..in place of the stock MC
If it's hiding under the floor, then where is the harm in being safer? Logic, its a mother****er. Not a bolt in, but check the design of the filling stations kit. I replicated it in a few hours with 10 ga steel and a longer rod.
I've got a '59 Galaxie with the original single master cylinder, it's not my daily driver but I do feel it's a safe car. All the rubber is less than 5 years old and the brake system gets a top to bottom inspection every year. If it looks questionable, it gets replaced. 90% of the cars I p*** on the road are probably safer than mine thanks to padded dash boards, shoulder belts, air bags, anti-lock brakes, etc. but that's my choice. My wife would still rather see me driving my Ford than riding any of the motorcycles I once owned, from a safety point of view.
Rodders have spent many decades IMPROVING the rides they chose to go fast in and this is why rodding has the good reputation it does today. Improvements in handling, speed, and braking all go hand in hand. Staying in the "boundaries" of such and such an era is just fine but the car is being driven today in today's traffic with little munchmobiles that can literally stop on a dime and give you 9 cents change. Following distance and functional correctly adjusted e-brakes along with a dual master cylinder are the best you can do with drum brakes and we should always do our best in the safety arena.
The Jalopy Journal
