Product Development: Magnetic Butt Welding Clamps

I'm thinking .......too late...........but I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. the world is full of vultures and I can't imagine the HAMB is immune. Not that a regular Hamber would be a threat but this sight is accessible from outside our little focused group. Good luck.

Frank

 

the tough part about a patent with this is it would only be the design and not the use, i cant see you getting a patent for magnets used in sheet metal work, i would say your looking at $10,000 for any patent, keep it simple, inexpensive, good, trademark name like panel-grips.

 

At $15.00 sales would be quite slow I just use a short 1 inch tab & 2 clecos & but weld less little to no gap Danny.

 

I normally use those little triangle magnets when working on a blind panel, but they **** for curves and arent even that great for flat panels. But its all I have. I prefer to have a gap because I can get better penetration and keep the weld flatter. I don't have problems with welding near magnets and besides, its only a tack and then the magnet is moved anyway.

That being said, I'd be in for a pair or maybe even a 4-pack @ $50. When theres a tool available that can save me time and frusturation, I have no problem paying for quality.

 

I don't understand the issues people are having with welding around magnets. These seem to be designed to hold everything in place until it's tack welded, then the keepers would be removed for finish welding, right? Seems to me that you could just drop a few tacks between each of these and then take them off. Problem solved. I'd buy some if they could be sold for around 10 bucks each. I'm not trying to degrade the value of the piece, but I'm a poor guy. If they were much more than that, I'd just find another way to get it done. Great idea and nice prototype. Apply for a patent on that ****er TODAY.

 

There are not a tool I would "show off" so the finish would not matter. IMHO Functional and cheap is BEST.

 

I dont mean to ask a stupid question.How do you clean a magnet of the fuzzies in a weld shop where grinding is done? There are a couple of magnets I use in the garage but they are always covered in grinder shavings.A 50 lbs draw magnet could collect a lot.

 

compressed air cleans magnets.

 

"hi BILLY MAYS HERE for magnetic **** welding clamps"

 

I've always just used a rag, bunched it up when pulling across the magnet to catch the shavings...it works and it's easy

 

I would buy a three pack at 15 each to try out, But I am a tool junkie.

I agree that a fixed gap would be a turnoff.

 

Well, if I can't build them and sell them for a profit, I'm not sure how anyone else could either.

I can't afford a patent, as some other guys have said, you're looking at $10k pretty easy, and these things are very low profit margin for me. Not worth it, and even if I did get the patent issued, I couldn't afford to defend it anyway, so it'd be useless.

The way the patent process works now, is that the big companies shop through issued patents, and then take what they want and dare the little companies to try and stop them.

They know they can bleed us dry in a few weeks time, and then they can just take the patent, or buy it off us cheap. They have battalions of flesh eating lawyers just chomping at the bit to go chew someone's face off, and the suits are not afraid to use them.

It's gotten to the point that I don't even bother with it anymore. If someone is going to steal it, so be it. Since the idea is out on the internet now, it will be public domain in a few months time, long before anyone else could patent it, so no one gets the monopoly.

I have found that the patent game is broken, so I refuse to play by the established rules.

No offense taken, I knew that the price was going to be rather stiff for most people. I will have to find a way to get the production costs down so I can shift the price point lower.

See above about the patent issue.

 

ditto... $15 seems to be inline with what I'd be willing to pay...

 

good idea , run with it if you can , make some $$$ now on it because if its a hit someone will knock it off in China , just the way the world is now

A patent is too costly and all it does is give you the right to sue someone , there is no "patent police" out there to go after the copycats,

Figure out a way to cut your costs so that you can make enough to sell them for 2 for $25 , if you need one you really need a pair !

good luck
Beaulieu

 

Yeah, this is exactly how I feel about patents and the patent courts these days.

They have long ago become a way for large corporations and the ChiComs to steal from small innovators. The big companies will try to buy the patent after they've bankrupted you with legal costs, to at least give a semi-legal veneer to their actions. The ChiComs don't even bother with that.

The only way us small players can compete is to be nibble and keep rolling.

By the time they steal this idea, I should already be two generations ahead with my development. When they release their knockoff, I can release an improved version, or just move on to another product line.

It's like forever running from a pack of wolves, but since I lack an M60 to stand and fight with, it's my only option right now.

If I ever get to a point that I can spare the lawyers and the money, I'd chase down and bludgeon the thieves with the patent laws on principal alone, but until such time as I have the resources to do that, I gotta just keep moving forward, and hope I never run out of good ideas.

 

read some patents and you will see how narrow the protection is ,

We could not believe all the prior art that was already patented in the 1920s-30s that looked like our product, in fact some of it was better design than what we were doing ,
Plus the prior art is from all fields , so if someone built a magnetic clamp for the railroad 100 years ago you would never have seen one !

if you can figure out what patent "cl***" your clamp is in you can look at all the other clamps in that section and get some good ideas.
Patents are only good for a short time, I think 20 years now , so anything older than that is fair game,

Google has the patents scanned if you want to look something up....

good luck , once you have some out there you will find other uses and better ways to make them.....

Beaulieu

 

Concerning the different size gap issue. It seems to me that having a replaceable/interchangable kerf for the weld gap would add to the expense and complexity. Might you be able to offer two "sizes" by extruding or machining the "kerf plate" with one size on each of the top/bottom sides? You would likely have to make it thicker for strength, and it may effect the holding power of the magnets.

Just tossing in a penny or two......Roger

 

That's what i'de say- put them in some hands and let them get used-feedback might determine what they should go for. I know tooling,machining,and labor is $,but if your advertising here for opinions( like eyeballs),put them in the HAMB public and see what happens.
My 2c. worth.

 

Magnets screw the hell out of welding. I'd be looking for some mechanical clamps though. I've tried Harbor Freight as many suggested but the one in Spokane does not carry them.

 

I think how I'm going to come at this is to make a single body that takes one or two gap pilots that can be driven in and out to change the gap.

Likely 1/16", and maybe 1/32", and then remove them altogether for no gap (or set with separate shims to any gap you like).

Extrusions for a small run is a non-starter. I'd have ten grand in bar stock before I sold a thing, and if something needs changed, I'm stuck with it, plus, it takes about six weeks to have a die done, and then another four to six weeks to have the bar squeezed.

That's gonna have to wait until my volume justifies it (IE over 1,000 units a month, minimum). Until then, it's too expensive and not nimble enough.

I'd be OK with putting a few into the hands of people I trust on here, but I've got to tell you that I have found over the years that public beta testing is essentially useless.

Unless they are personal friends and folks you can track down in person, of the people that take the free tools, only about 8% will report back with anything at all. Of that 8%, maybe 1% will have anything useful (either finding a problem, or offering a good idea, etc) to add to the project.

For the most part, people see those deals as a good way to score free stuff with no strings attached. Once the tools show up, you never hear from them again.

For that reason, I prefer to do my beta testing myself, and include a circle of locals that I can rely on not to screw me or flake out and go missing on me.

No offense, but I have found that any other solution is unreliable at best, and a total waste of time and money at worst.

 

Have you experienced this first hand, or just heard it somewhere?

If you've had it happen to you, please tell me the machine you were using and what kind of magnet it was, what you were working on, how if affected the weld, and anything else you think is pertinent.

Not calling you a liar or anything, I just want to hear from people who've actually had the problem, because I cannot recreate it here with any of my equipment.

Magnets have zero effect on my machines, welding in my shop, so I have no first hand experience with this phenomenon.

 

OK, I've got a plan in place now.

I will be finishing my revised version of the quick release clamp (including a few improvements you all suggested) this coming week.

I will also be rebuilding an earlier prototype with the fixed magnets to see what you all think of it. I'll include the updates from the quick release version on the new revision of the fixed magnet clamp too.

Depending on how fast UPS is, I should have something in real metal to show off towards the end of this coming week.

Choices for gaps will be 0.000" (no gap), 0.032" (1/32"), and 0.063" (1/16").

Both types will have switchable gaps.

I am shooting for retail on the quick release type to be at or less than $15 ea, and on the fixed magnet type at or less than $12 ea. We'll have to see how that all shakes out, but I think it can be done.

Stay tuned folks, and thanks to all those who participated.

 

Good luck with these, you have a great little clamp there! I hope you have the next duct tape or ziptie on your hands and you sell a million of them! I'd make your first production run and take them to all the car shows, swap meets, and any other function where you can get them in front of a large group of anyone doing metal work and get your name out there. I've bought all kinds of small simple tools like this at car shows and the like and can't live without them now. Be sure to slip a business card in the bag when someone buys them though because if most people are like me they will forget the company name when they go looking for more lol... I'm sure the plan is to have a more widespread distributorship but you have to start somehwere.

 

Get these onto tool trucks if you can or go and visit every bodyshop you can when you get a chance I bet they'd jump on these little guys. Production body shops are all about speed and I could see where these would be a big help. And yes I'm sure they will eventually get knocked off by one on the offshore companys but as long as yours are high quality and you back them you will still be the prefered source. I don't know how many junk offshore tools i've tossed because they were junk but I bought it because it was all I could find. Again, good luck and i hope you sell them by the truck load!

 

I used a magnet to hold two panels together while welding on a 62 Falcon. Everytime I got near the magnet the mig started spattering and welding poorly. Using a Millermatic 185. I've talked to others thatt also experienced this with other makes of welders.

 

The flux field of the magnets will affect the welding arc as you get close to the magnets. You can overcome some of the affect by putting a steel ring around area you are welding in. This causes the flux field to go around the steel ring. If you rub the magnet on the steel panels you will magnetize the panels and have have a problem weld the panels together.

To me cleco clamps are a better option and cost a lot less. The HF clamps work and are cheap and work if you want a gap for the weld. I usually try to have no gap and fusion weld the panels together when **** welding panels together without using a filler rod unless I blow a hole in the panel.

 

it's a good idea,,but it is limited..if it was able to bend or hinge,, would be of more use..but yes i would buy something like that if i was welding flat stock..

 

unless you've cut both parts with a shear your 1/32 gap will be inconsistant. haveing a measured gap in the "clamp" would be kind of silly.

I could accomplish the same thing using just a regular magnet and make any gaps measuring with my eyeball.

 

Geez Dude, a little respect for the recently departed!

 

I'm sure it wont be long before Speedy Bill steals your idea and starts cranking them out in some some Chinese sweat shop.