Tech new Flathead Manifold/Dizzy and crankcase ventilation.

I will be traveling all next week, so i have to start to early,Sorry about that ;-)



I had laid my hands on a Thickstun two carb intake. And a couple of Stromberg carbs. To start with I had to change the original dizzy since it not works together with Stromberg carbs. But this is what I started with




First I found the TDC, its quite easy on The 8BA if its running. First align the pointer to the mark on the pulley.


Then remove the cap from the distributor, and the rotor should point at the number one post. If not turn the engine another revolution. And it should line up.


Out with the old and in with the new.


I got a new MSD Dizzy since I wanted the vacuum functionality. Otherwise a Mallory works ok.First I had to put on and adapter provided, so the mounting height could be defined.


Then I tried it in the engine and found the right height, end then I only had to tighten the screw, all this is explained in the manual.


Mounted the gear and put some grease on it.


After that I mounted the dizzy in the engine, since I haven't turned the engine over the place where the rotor points is the number one post.


Connect the ignition wires starting with number one (in the right position) and you are done.


It started up great and I drove it some time, with the vacuum connected to the manifold, I got a ruff idle. And after reading the instruction it said that the vacuum should be connected to an vacuum source above the throttle plate! So that had to be taken care of. After studying my Stromberg carbs, I found these two plugged holes (probably used when drilling holes for the adjustment present on the other side.


The plugs was removed easily with a pliers and some minor violence.


Here you can see that the holes are above the throttle plates


Then I had to enlarge the holes slightly by drilling, and I used some 6mm copper brake lines.


I used silver soldering to connect everything (it's a low heat soldering method, hope I got the English words right here).


After that it was time to figure out the crankcase ventilation. Mocked up the intake on an spare 8BA I had standing around.


I capped of the original steel tube that is connected to the road draft tube.


After some eyeballing I drilled and tapped a hole for a pipe fitting.


Silver soldered an 8mm copper fuel line to the br*** fitting


here you can see how the type slip into the steel tube, after id took this picture a made a slip fit steel tube that went over the 8mm copper pipe, so I would not get to much leaks.


This is what it looks when ready, I put the steel tube into the engine, and the just let the copper pipe slip into it when mounting the manifold.


Maybe not the best picture, but number one connects to number 3, and number 2 connects to the vacuum wipers and the rubber tube from the carb connects to the vacuum on the distributor.


Since the hole in the pipe fitting was around 5mm I solder it up and drilled a 1,5 mm hole. After checking the size on my Volvo crankcase ventilation, I guessed to big hole could get the engine to running roughly (and I was right sort off)


Then it was time for the Fuel pump, did not bolt on!


The lower fuel pump rod id for a 59AB (to thin) The upper is an 8BA rod to long!


Had to shorten it around 16mm you have to measure on your own setup to get it right. But unit was quite easy since íts a steel tip sitting it the tube.


Looking better don't it


After i had been driving it for some time I couldn't get the idle right it was bit rough, so I converted the front carb. And used that one as vacuum source for the crankcase ventilation. And i have driven it around 700 miles, and the oil keeps clean and fresh, actually better then with the original setup. The only drawback is that I get some minor smoke at the fuel pump when idling, since the vacuum is not on then.


Hope ive given you some ideas. Regarding the carbs I ended up with the original size jets 035 in Stromberg 81's. And since my 8BA is original I only got more grunt at 55 mph and above . But I did not loose anything on the mileage (1.3 liter per 100km , figure that one out all you mpg guy's ;-))

 

Very cool! However, your mileage figures don't add up for me

1.3l = .3434237 US Gallons
100km = 62.13712 Statute Miles

62.13712 / .3434237 = 180.93428 mpg!

I thought maybe I had misplaced a decimal, but I think it was you - you sure that's not 10 km ? Because that would make sense at 18mpg!!

Someone please check my conversion & math!

1 gal = 3.785412 ltr or 1 ltr = 0.2641721
1 mi = 1.609344 km or 1 km = 0.6213712

 

you are 100% Right my mistake
1,3 liter per 10km

or as we say 1.3 liter milen.
one mil= 10km

 

F*cking Brilliant tech, But my one criticism, i would avoid using copper as a fuel line, it tends to work harden which can be quite dangerous when it splits...... that said, sweet install

 

I agree about the copper as fuel line, and in this application only air is traveling in it.

On another note copper fuel lines are ok if clamped proprtly, to prevent vibrations. Remember its the vibration not the copper as such that is the problem.
I have had steel fuel lines rust on me, and starting to leak.

Clamping is the reason you should not use it in the engine room, you cant clamp it properly.
But clamped every 5" to the frame is ok, in my book.

Thanks for the nice words....

 

I think we've visited the copper line issue in the past & come to the conclusion that copper tubing produced in Europe contains a much higher nickel (?) content than that produced in the states and is less prone to work hardening/cracking.

It's legal to use on brake lines over here & several folks have run 'em for years like that. Still freaks me out, but I've heard that even Volvo uses copper in the brake lines as OEM!

That said, it still must be properly supported & given a few good coils to absorb the little vibration over a larger area...

 

Mr42, i didnt realise that they were air lines, the limited time ive been playing with engines ive only worked on VW's (coz im a poor 17yrold), and lets not go there on this topic, glad you could clarify that for me though.

cheers
Adam


Ps, its not even tech week and it ****ing rocks!

 

No problem Adam
You are 17 and know about the copper line problem. I didn't do that at your age. So you are ahead.


Regarding the Volvo brakelines i think its steel lines with copper content to prevent rust. Not pure copper tubes.

And keep a low profile on the vw talk here
I only have three of them myself, but i dont dare to ventilate it here with all ******** rodders

 

Mr 42, excellent piece of TECH! The only thing I'm wondering about is; did you use a PCV valve? (the subject of PCV's can be found in the TECH-O-Matic section here on the HAMB)

Now, seeing as how Ryan declared NEXT week as a TECH week; I think you should repost it on Monday!!

EDIT: Opps .. just reread your first line! I think everyone will understand.

Ernie; now you have me REALLY confused!

 

[ QUOTE ]
Ernie; now you have me REALLY confused!

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave, it's really simple to figure mpg - just fill up your tank, keep track of how many miles you drive, fill it up again & note the gallons. Then divide your miles by your gallons & Bob's your uncle!

Sorry, couldn't resist!

(I ***ume you mean the copper line bit, eh?)

 

I dont use a PCV valve.
1: I dont understand exactly how they work.

2: And most important Volvo engines dont have PCV valves (im a Swede)and Flatheads dont use a PCV valve, it uses the roaddraft tube/Ventilator.
The only thing they have is a sortoff steelfilter put in to prevent backfires to go into the engine i guess.

The Volvo engines have a small hole (around 1.5mm)for thr vacuum source.

And if i understand it right the PCV valve has a much bigger hole.

And my solution have two 2 mm holes into the carb one at each barrel.

Finaly it works for me..

 

Damn That looks sharp if you will pardon the pun I am glad it is not another Saab story...

 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont use a PCV valve.
1: I dont understand exactly how they work.

2: And most important Flatheads dont use a PCV valve, it uses the roaddraft tube/Ventilator.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr 42, I'm a 50 year fan of flatheads. When Ford designed the "road draft" method of ventilating the cankcase it turned out to NOT be one of their "BEST IDEAS."

PCV valves (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) was introduced after the flathead went out of production.

I mentioned the TECH-O-matic piece on "PCV's for Flatheads" in case you wanted to study how several flathead lovers have incorporated them to their engines simply because no PCV valve showed up in any of your pictures.

Check here .. The Jalopy Journal: Flathead PCV:

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing they have is a sortoff steelfilter put in to prevent backfires to go into the engine i guess.

The Volvo engines have a small hole (around 1.5mm)for thr vacuum source.

And if i understand it right the PCV valve has a much bigger hole.

And my solution have two 2 mm holes into the carb one at each barrel.

Finaly it works for me..

[/ QUOTE ]

My question was not meant to be critical of your solution. As a flathead lover, I was just wondering.

 

Dave i think you have missunderstood my solution.
I have PCV = Positive Crankcase ventilation

I just dont use a PCV Valve.
The valve as such don't do anything (its the manifold vacuum), other then maybe preventing backfires to go into the crankcase (but as i said i dont understand the theory behind the valve as such. Maybe someone can enlighten us).

And thousands of Volvo's Saab's Audi's cars dont have the Valve either.
Sorry that i dont have to much knowledge about American iron except some SBC junk iv worked on (they have the PCV Valve).

But all uses manifold vacuum to get crankcase fumes out of the engine. And so do i now , no more roaddraft

And the main reason for having PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) is to burn unburnt fuel (i dont now the english word for the gases), and contribute to a cleaner environment. PCV was the big aircleanup step before the CAT. Then you get a cleaner engine to as a side effect.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Dave i think you have missunderstood my solution.
I have PCV = Positive Crankcase ventilation

I just dont use a PCV Valve.
The valve as such don't do anything (its the manifold vacuum), other then maybe preventing backfires to go into the crankcase (but as i said i dont understand the theory behind the valve as such. Maybe someone can enlighten us).

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess my suggestion of taking a look at some ALTERNATE methods doesn't interest you.
I know how PCV valves work.

 

I'm just guessing, but could it be that if you switch a Engine with a large intake volume between the Carb and intake valves off, there are a lot of fumes to flow into the crankcase, and over time dilute the Engine Oil?
Cause the PVC Valve closes when the Engine is off, right?

 

I Have read all post's about PCV Valves over the years on multiple boards. Even Fourdys at the hamb (that i think is the latest) and i have even replied to it is that good enough??

And i still cant figure out why you need the valve as such.
I have taken PCV Valves apart and its a spring loaded valve.
And as far as i understand it it dont need much vacuum to open. Making it work more or less as my application, excuse me for my ignorance.

Since some of you have stated that they now how the PCV valve work, could you please share that knowledge with me?(us)

The reason i have chosen to not mount my stuff under the manifold is that i dont like to have rubber hoses running inside the engine, and maybe break and clogg the oilpump some year down tha road. And when i connected it to a vac*** source on the Thickstun manifiold i got a bad idle. so thats the reason i used the carb as a vacuum source.

And i cant see what a PCV Valve could have done to help that since at idle you have a high vacuum situation, so the valve should be open then to and add extra "air" into the manifold.

Nice talking to all off you

 

A NEW thread has been started with a DETAILED explanation of how PCV Valves work.

Without the valve, the OPEN port from the intake manifold to the crankcase is the same as having a VERY LARGE Va***me LEAK!

THAT makes it difficult to get a proper balance on multi carb (and single carb) setups, AS WELL as NOT allowing the distributor ADVANCE to operate to it's full range.

The PCV valve controls the flow of the va***me to situations (see other thread) that don't upset air/fuel mixtures and the "vac signal" to the distributor.

As far as the "kind of hose" vs. copper line, doesn't have any bearing on the operation of a PVC valve. There are lots of "hard service" types of hose that can be used without any fear of them "gumming up the works." (mine uses stainless braided aircraft hose)

 

Hi Dave

Why are you shouting?

1: I dont have a connection to from the crankcase to the manifold! I use the vacuum source above the throttleplate.

2: That makes it easy to balance the carbs

3: Regarding the vacuum signal to the distributor, it say's in the MSD instruction that the vacuum source should be above the throttle plate (i have that). Shouldn't i trust MSD??
And the advance works fully for me, i have checked ;-)

4: Stainless braided hose should work Ok, in my book to. its the rubber parts i don want to have inside my engine


And finaly Dave, if it makes you feel better i plan to get a PCV Valve and connect it to Manifold vac***, to see if i can get it to work better then my current solution works. Not that i think i have a big problem with the Current solution.

 

[ QUOTE ]
1: I dont have a connection to from the crankcase to the manifold! I use the vacuum source above the throttleplate.

Regarding the vacuum signal to the distributor, it say's in the MSD instruction that the vacuum source should be above the throttle plate (i have that). Shouldn't i trust MSD??
And the advance works fully for me, i have checked ;-)

Not that i think i have a big problem with the Current solution.

[/ QUOTE ]

If BOTH (crankcase ventilation and advance) are hooked "above the throttle plate(s)" there is No way your getting full advance.

But, hey, what do I know?

 

yes i get full advance, since the vacuum is taken from two separate carbs (sources).

Rear carb takes care of the dizzy, front carb crankcase
ventilation

If it was from the same source (point), it would affect the vac*** signal.

Maybe you should reread my post?

Anyone else have any questions /opinion's?

 

[ QUOTE ]
yes i get full advance, since the vacuum is taken from two separate carbs (sources).

Rear carb takes care of the dizzy, front carb crankcase
ventilation

If it was from the same source (point), it would affect the vac*** signal.

[/ QUOTE ]

One engine, common plennum manifold, two carbs = 1/2 vac signal at each carb. The connections are still drawing from one source.

 

Hi Dave

You are logical, but dont all engines get tha vacuun from one source? The pumping of the pistons?

If PCV and Distributor vacuum was connected thru a T connection im sure we would see your problem description.
But now its not.

And could you explain to me how i should connect it so it would work, remember i dont have a BIG hole for my PCV function im using the small hole compromise. As explained in PCV 101 posting.

And if you look att this picture the "white" line to the left of the pointer is the mark where the original distributor advanced the enging at low rpm (idle). And my setup advances it a bit farther, and it goes to the same position regardless if i have my PCV Connected or if i take the vacuum from manifold or above throttleplate, trust me ive tried both.





Dave im not saying my solution is the best in the world, but i think i have explained why and how it works(with some help from others,Thanks everone).

I will definetly try the Valve route, but the valves i have tried so far have not worked, probably because of the size of the hole in them.

So lets agree to disagree.

 

Which brings us to the next cl***, vacuum sources.

There is ported vacuum which is connected above the throttle plates, and is used for distributor timing control.

And then there is manifold vacuum, below the throttle plates and used for everything else e.g. power brakes, wipers, CRANKCASE VENTILATION etc.

The vacuum signal strength at various speeds, loads, throttle positions, are very different so they should be used appropriately.

And if you have the crankcase ventilation, with your orifice, connected to manifold vacuum, you should reset your idle mixture, this air is leaning out your mixture.
How much? Depends on vacuum strength, orifice size, blow by volume... you get the picture.

 

[ QUOTE ]
There is ported vacuum which is connected above the throttle plates, and is used for distributor timing control.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the basis for some of the misunderstandings, here. The Ford flathead and early Y-blocks used a calibrated vacuum source to actuate the advance mechanism in the distributor. I guess that's were the "Load-O-matic" term was coined. After 1956, Ford went with the now traditional dual advance distributor with both vacuum and mechanical advance systems. These can easily be run off manifold vacuum sources.
There's really nothing wrong with Mr. 42's PCV system design. It pretty much follows the original fixed orfice designs that were forced upon California residents as retro-fit kits in the early sixties. I'm sure some of the problems ***ociated with understanding how the carb needed to be re-adjusted contributed the negative publicity the new PCV systems received. Not to mention the fact that the installer of the new system actually had to read and understand the installation instructions!

 

The PCV is also a safety thing. Since it is a one way valve it prevents the crankcase from carb backfire. If your engine is old and worn out and your oil has not been changed for years there is a pretty good mix of oil and gasoline in your pan that could explode when a carb backfire gets down in the crankcase.

 

I think that the misunderstanding is related to the size of the "controlled vacuum leak" that a PVC system creates. The PCV valve on US cars is to control the vacuum leak so the engine only uses it when required by the operating condition of the engine. The solution here on the flathead is to meter the size of the vacuum leak by using a small orifice and a ported vacuum source. The only problem I can see with the orificed system is the amount of flow is restricted in a situation where there may be large amounts of blow-by to contend with ,possibly resulting in escaping gases. Just my 2cents worth. The real proof is that it works!

 

[ QUOTE ]
So lets agree to disagree.

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Mr 42, first, let me apologize for being a bit of an "***." Language differences (you speak a hell of a lot better English than I do Swedish!!) and the possible misinterprutations on both sides got the better of me.
Sorry.

Now, a couple of questions. Is the MSD distributor Part Number 8573?

I have been considering that paticular one for my latest project.

If yours is the above number, does it have the mechanical advance as well as the vacuum advance?