Well yes they are , or are supposed to be, the club that runs the Nostalgia drags in NZ .... Bay Rodders . The club is local to me , but hell NZ is smaller than most US states ...it can't be that hard. Bay Rodders members come over to Willowbank for the Winters every year, and a couple of other meetings. That is where they got the idea from...not from being Hambers initially. I had started on my frames to the original rules ( My ideas came from reading about HA/GR here), Later I heard that Bay Rodders were going to run with the rules as modified for Aussie by your group and ANDRA. I have all the parts collected for two , and maybe three cars but.............I'm waiting . The president of Bay Rodders has built his to those rules , another member of their club has veered off somewhat in the direction of the RH steer bucket type HA/GR you guys have running in Aussie, but there are other NZ based Hambers living in other parts of the country who have read the original rules here, and as you say are interpreting them their way, those guys have not even considered where they are going to race. I am not concerned really, I have enough other projects to complete... I was really offering a possible reason for the lack of growth which some of the US based guys were complaining..... I am sure there are a lot of prospective builders/racers in the USA who are in the same frame of mind as myself...just watching and deciding if it is feasible... and if so which variation of the "rules" to build to. I am sure the diversity and disparity between interpretation and rule bending and the insistence on rule bending/changing is the one big thing that holds "possibles" from becoming "probables" and "probables" from committing to building. Lets face it all of the cars which rae now or have raced have been built to the rules, some have been modified to run the SDRA rules , which (correct me if I am wrong) are an offshoot of the original concept and rules. HA/GR was only ever meant to be a HAMB drags deal as far as I am aware, it has grown from there but has now mutated......... Ryan said no to big money big organisation etc, and opted out of organising anything more than the official event at Mokan, and now the tail is wagging the dog. I spend five or six months travelling in North America most years, if I thought I could race it in a lot of places against equal cars and I had somewhere to keep it I would be tempted to buy Glenn DaBirdGuy's half done HA/GR....
You were the one saying that the cl*** is not growing, if growth isn't a legitimate enough reason for building to the rules I don't know why you are even bothering to post about it here...this is about HA/GR . Everyubody talking about bending the rules and changing the rules on this column is just holding the thing back . As for yyour reference to "the dude(s)" that wrote the rules...that is a whole lot of disrespect for Ryan and the guys who thought of the concept , built AND RACED the first HA/GR cars....ever wonder why they don't bother to post here now??
Two of the first and only 3 cars that were raced at mokan in 2005, have been sold. They were the Arkansas car, The Ow***o ok. car and the Broken Arrow Ok. car, only one is still being raced by the original builders, the Hornet, in Broken Arrow.
Let me think about this a minute. Thats long enough. Weren't the owners of the two cars that are no longer HA/GR owners or racers the same people who complained about the use of an automatic. What does that say about rule changers?
It says that all the ******* and moaning about the rules drives folks away. Those who refuse to comply with the rules take the fun out of it for those who care deeply about the rules. Those who build a race car that is a full second faster than anyone else in the cl*** soon find they don't have anybody left to race. One of the guys you're talking about is driving Junior Fuel now and loves it. I am running a slingshot FED now and hope to step up to Junior Fuel next year. The owner of the fourth car is doing exactly the same thing. If you're not having fun, don't like the rules or are sick of the ********, go get yourself another race car. I'm running in the nines now, and getting faster. Looking at the back of a blower, in the middle of a hellacoius burnout. Poppin' wheelies. Poppin' the chute. I love it. I shouldn't look back at HA/GR and care, but I do care. I care what it stands-for. It shouldn't be *******ized.
Thanks Rand Man. I love this cl*** and what it stands for. I have just been informed that I am now the proud owner of a 128" wheelbase FED. I will not get out of this cl*** after I have built the FED, and as long as there is someone to race, that is what I will bring to Mokan. Robert
Vector, There's better ways to make your point. My grandkids read this stuff because I have an HA/GR.
So what words can we use? I see you dropped *** twice yesterday in this post below, regardless of context or intent. Pot, this is kettle. Kettle, this is pot.... <end petty rant, with my apologies> It's all tongue in cheek, I ***ure you.
I respectfully disagree. firstly, 30-40 people frequent this area... Nobody is driving anybody anywhere. Go to any forum, any thread, anywhere, on any topic, the result is you will find similar threads of people disagreeing on intent, design, and follow through of their prospective interests. People that are p***ionate enough about a project to build a car from scratch are gonna have some strong opinions. Comes with the territory. I'm not sure how somebody else's build that isn't just like yours would make you have less fun? Isn't the spirit of the rules to make something out of whatever you have laying around and take it to the track? From the stands, they all look similar enough, in their "Dis-similarity" to current race cars. Which is how you showcase the old days.
Is it? Here's the history page; http://www.hambdrags.com/HaGr/history.html "heads up racing for the working man"...
Yep great disrespect Now , That is a precis of the history, there is a post somewhere with links back to the archived files . Ryan is still here, Kevin Lee is still around, the others are HAMBers . The HAMB is bigger then just HA/GR , it is a worldwide movement started by Ryan and it is built on that respect , and as far as I am concerned you have disrespected all that he has done . All you have done since you arrived here was try to change things and told us how good you are at everything....... to quote Ryan on HA/GR I'm afraid some folks are in it for the wrong reasons - and that's OK. They will get frustrated and move on... I just hope there are at least 1 or 2 guys out there that are banging gears with blinders on and a big *** smile on their face. Over and out ..no doubt you will want the last word as always.....
What makes you so confident that the rules couldn't be altered in a way that would encourage participation? Remember, we have a precedent. 20-25 cars in 4-5 years. Can that be made better? And the real question, should it be? If HA/GR rules writers are happy with that car count, the rest of us can take a leap. And I've been saying that all along. If he were to jump in and say, "Boys, appreciate all your thoughts, we got about 20 of 'em made, 5-6 pockets of them around the earth, and we're happy with that, no changes required.". That would absolutely end every bit of debate about the subject. Until we see that, and can link back to it, and point to it, we debate. I think you'll find that people that are p***ionate about a subject tend to look obsessive to outsiders. I am a p***ionate builder of things. I type very quickly, have reasonable amounts of spare time and am p***ionate about the things I am involved in. That's why we have debates here. We are all p***ionate about the concept. If nobody cared, we wouldn't be debating things. Even in dis-agreement, we can all agree that we are here because we care. I am grateful that we have the HAMB. I have no beef with Ryan whatsoever. Seems like a nice enough guy. if you are feeling that I am disrespecting him by being contrary or inquisitive, you'd be wrong. He's only posted in the HA/GR thread 2 times this year. I'm gonna be frank with ya... That's not interest. The HAMB drag site hasn't been updated in what appears to be it's inception, that's not interest. The rules guys tossed up some ideas many years ago and that's been about it. You can't preach "gr*** roots" anything if you're ONLY preaching to the choir. Look closer. I'm more about, "could it be changed", is there a better way?. I like to think I am VERY good at marketing. I love to debate... A LOT. If you feel your opinion is better than anybody else's, prove it. Don't talk ****, don't back pedal, just convince some people, good or bad, right or wrong that you're ideas have merit over someone else's. Don't tell me I have a big ego (I already know that) and that I'm stirring the pot, tell me what is technically wrong with the concepts presented. Show me how you feel we can get more cars built. "IF" that is the goal. We're preaching to each other, the 30 of us. And if you REALLY want to prove how unimportant this is "in the big picture of things", perform the following experiment. See If you can go up to your co-workers (without them laughing in your face), tell them, "so, I'm arguing with this anonymous guy on a web forum..." See how far you get into the story before you realize they've all wandered off...
Vector: I don't have the need to convince you of anything. The guys with HA/GR and SDRA cars seem pretty happy with what they have built and the rules they followed. If other people want to follow suit, they'll get lots of help and support here. A few conclusions I've reached; I'm pleased you are building the dragster you envisioned. Also pleased it isn't an HA/GR. I like the fact you live in Montana. You could use some of your copious free time to experiment with the activity you described in the last paragraph of your post #60. I think your audience is about to wander off...(see your post directly above).
A friend of mine came up to me at the dragstrip in the begining of the summer and asked me if i knew what a HAMB dragster was. I said no. He said he was going to build one because he was tired of the Nostalgia rules he currently races in. I was intruiged by the concept. Now that I know what it is about....I'm all in. The part that appeals to me is the fact that I don't know diddly about any of the early powerplants and drivetrains. I have never shifted anything older that 1963. Don't change the rules. I am building a car this winter, as is my friend that fueled my fire. This isn't going to be easy for me, and I am all for it. Do we need to change the 10 commandments? Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's slush-o-matic?
Welcome sloppyjoe, tell us about your choices for a motor and don't worry about the old drive trains, they are not in the rules, just the motor and carbs. For safety I use more modern trans and rear, with better brakes and newer metal. what tracks are close to you?
No sweat sir, for a variety of reasons the rules aren't changing. If you want to build to existing HA/GR standards you can forge on, we're not going away. Basic theme: reliving the fun of the period with original and/or reasonably represented equipment and the car styles, including an intent to re-ins***ute the driver's contribution to the race. The largest faction, slowly growing but well ****tered as yet. You also have the option to build to existing SDRA standards for a different take on it. I rather doubt they're going away either. Basic theme: reliving the fun of the period and the car styles at more modern speeds and ETs, with concessions appropriate to that end. Organized in the midwest and also slowly growing. In addition there's the newly proposed variation in the works called VGR to consider. Firm rules yet to come, but it could take off as well. Basic theme: reliving the fun of the period and the general car styles with even more readily available equipment, with concessions appropriate to that end. An unknown quan***y at this point of course. That makes three iterations of the original concept from which to choose. My own prejudice is for the first. Welcome.
Vector, I agree with you 100%. Precicely what I've been trying to convey. HA/GR's are being built to the rules/requirements of a region: Low powered cars in Australia and California (13-14 second E.T.'s) to meet the local rules and be allowed to race, and RACE cars in the midwest (11 second E.T.'s) since the local rules were changed to automatics out of necessity (read that as $$$$) and we're allowed to go faster. Give the HA/GR RACE cars a set of rules with a spec tire, roll cage and an automatic and I think you'll see more cars built that will help power the entire HA/GR MOVEMENT. To the spectators all the HA/GR STYLE cars are the same. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and quacks like a duck....it must be a duck. The spectators won't know,or care that the RACE cars are slightly different. They'll just like them more cause their noisier and faster. If for a minute the mantra "IN THE SPIRIT" can be put aside, and some logic applied to the ongoing situation, there may come to light that this MOVEMENT needs to be divided into 2 cl***es, roughly based on local rules/requirements. Slow cars where their rules allow and Race cars where their allowed. That would only take a couple of adjustments and would further the HA/GR movement. Then there wouldn't be any confussion about what to build. Build to meet your local rules/requirement cause that's what's available . I think all of us realize the basic HA/GR concept is in danger of becoming stagnent unless we all stop for a moment, take a deep breath and evulate the situation. Some want to live strickly "FOR THE SPIRIT", others want to live "UNDER THE SPIRIT" as a concept only, while others like the idea but realize there are facets to "THE SPIRIT" that could be polished and become another part of the overall HA/GR MOVEMENT. The original "fundamental spirit" concept isn't working so lets find a way to satisfy a hell of a lot more people and make this thing grow. HA/GR 1 "Spirit" cars (bias ply tire, manual ******, single or double hoop) HA/GR 2 Automatic, spec radial tire, roll cage Ahh hell, I opened my big mouth again. Ron
I think I know the reason that Ryan included the rule 'FULL FACE HELMET MUST BE WORN' this is to keep my huge smile in place everytime I run my car , Thanks Ryan.
Ya know Ron I watched the threads while you were building your motor, and I asked myself "why" . Why go to those lengths to build an old motor into a full on race engine for HA/GR when the tires are going to limit traction anyway and if you manage to get the traction the trans is probably going to be the next weak link. I appreciate the effort and the build, and although I haven't seen it , I know it will be a work of art... you are an engine builder ,it 's your thing. You took an engine from within the rules and built it full house. You are still limited by the tires though.......... I am sure your car would go much faster with a set of slicks. So you will install an auto trans to save you from trans damage, you convert to SDRA and now want to change the rules over there to a different set of tires for safety and a bit more traction. Now the car will do 9s at 140mph ...suddenly NHRA takes notice invokes insurance and track loyalty rules and wants/demands the ch***is and driveline parts are "pro-built" and says you must have approved (read : buy from those that pay backhanders ) parts like ***anium valve covers and mandated helmet protectors and parachutes, and floating hubs and approved axles, ...............it ain't simple anymore and the rules change every year and the expense goes up and the participants fall away and give up. What if somebody decides to inject his SDRA car, because injection is what he does, and then needs Alky to keep it cool and make it safer, and better tires ? Will NHRA get involved and want more safety rules applied with new safe rims and beadlocks, A HANS device for your head/neck, SFI 15 race suit, certified bellhousing and correct NHRA approved everything......... and we are back to 1999. Back to your engine, and your premise that nothing can beat a GMC 302.....if it is built within the HA/GR rules. I might just have to take up that challenge, but I will stay with the stick shift and the cross-ply tires...... not this year but it is a thought for the future.
Mr 97 sir i just read your post ,it is obvious you have not read the sdra rules.rule 7, 6 inch street tires only radial or bias ply only no wider than 6 inchs, also we not going let the cars run that fast because we do not want to get into sfi area of approved ch***is / 1500 dollar fire suits and so on. You can find the rules at www. Tulsa racepark. Com click on forum scroll down to nostalgia drags
Hi 97, I love this,, A globel challange (bring it on). What will be your choice of motor? And good luck! By the way, that jimmy is not "full race", for one thing it has 50 year old rods, steel, Hudson. I am looking forward to seeing your progress. Joe
for Ron Golden--- why is it that any car that can't keep up with YOU isn't a RACE car? Why is it that you insist that this cl*** "bar" be set to YOUR standards? IF- and that's a big IF-- a part of this cl*** is to keep the dollars down, what's so wrong with guys building to a lower ET to keep to their own budget? YOU have access to the machinery and labor to keep ALOT more engine at a reasonable $$ level. Most of us don't. You said a few posts back that you dig inline flatties, but with every post about the rules, you infer their ridiculousness in RACE use. I keep reading the auto trans argument with dollar signs as a reason, but I guess it only counts for the trans, not the engine. I think the cl*** divisions SHOULD divide the sticks and autos, but I think there should be an old fashioned cubic inch to weight ratio division as well. maybe that'd legitimize us non-RACE guys in your narrow focus.
Men, If You as racers want to complain about what the other guy is building, running, I guess you have that wright. But in my mind it would be far more constructive to HELP the other guy than complain. As to car count, I hear some people (local) ask when will those guys (HA/GR site) settle on some rules. I have to tell them they have rules and we already have our (SDRA) rules. Build your car. SDRA does not want to get into a h***le with NHRA (read insurance), SO, to that point we have discussed an ET limit that will keep us away from the SFI induced costs. Do we want to go fast, Yes. Do we want to be safe, Yes. Can it be done at a reasonal cost, YES. We have not said the sky is the limit. We want it to be fun.
'Sled, I don't think that is necessary. Between the weight of the GMC engines and the 6" tires it will all work out. Part of the fun is building with the minimal amount of rules and seeing what we can innovate to balance the equation. (pun intended) They can have the horsepower end of it and we can go "Jennie Craig" to compensate. The thing that amazes me is all of the problems people have with manual transmissions. Back in the early days of the AF/X cars and the early altered wheelbase pre-funny cars, almost everyone was running four speeds and I don't ever recall seeing one break. What did Landy and the boys know that's been forgotten through the years? As for the "Race/non-Race" debate, I think most will agree that we wouldn't be building these cars if we weren't planning on racing them. It seems like some folks just get too wound up in the details to remember when drag racing was fun and not a "profession".
*whew, heats off me* <crawls out of his fox hole to watch Ron be the whippin' boy for a while...again...> <gets popcorn and settles in.> I love you man.
I have a proposal that will likely stop any bickering. Even leaves me (albeit temporarily) out of the discussion. I think we should start a thread for HA/GR rules discussion. in that thread, THE ONLY PEOPLE that can post are current builder/drivers. That's it. Until you've completely built the car and consummated it with some runs down the track, a lot of the *****ing from the "fence leaners" and "hangers on" is mute. Only people taking their car to the track should have a say in how things are done. They're the ones with the biggest investment in the cl***. And having been there, done that, should be the ones we put the most stock in for ideas.
I hate to tell you but that proposal that you have is the way it is supposed to be already. The ones who are driving an HA/GR car, are the only ones that can change the rules(with Ryan's input). This was set up when the cl*** started. My personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that unless you are driving one of these, you should have no say so in it at all. I do not mind answering questions from someone who is planning on building or helping in any way I can. As far as all the "discussing" the rules, I have no problem. As I have mentioned in several previous posts, if you want an HA/GR car, build it and race it. If you want an automatic and radial tires, build it and join up with the SDRA group. Obviously they are the only real RACE cars in some peoples opinion. Robert
It wouldn't really be a global challenge , I would build a car over there and leave it there. I normally spend a good part of the year in North America ( chasing the summer) but I am not going to be there for long enough this year, due to personal and business commitments in New Zealand. Choice of Motor, mmm let me see, could be Hudson, Packard, Cadillac or lightweight Ford........ probably 356 cube Packard 8 bored and stroked to 410 cubes.
The Jalopy Journal
