Yes I know, there are enough of these to go around. But since I finally fixed my issue, I wanted to pass on one tidbit. (new french flathead, stock, offy heads, 4bbl with griffin rad, new 180 thermostats) I realize the arguments over 180,160,140 thermostats, or no thermostats. Water with vinegar, water with wetter water, etc etc etc. Here is what I stuck with and will retest tomorrow. 90 degree day should tell me. I drained my system and flushed it with water. While I had it drained I figure might as well change the thermostats to 160s for a test. Figured it wouldnt hurt. Well I got to thinking in the parts store. Mr Gasket thermostats have a much wider opening for water flow than the standard thermostat. I know my 180s were the standard type. So I picked two up. One evening after I drained and flushed the system, I replaced the thermostats and let it sit for 24 hours. Today I added regular prestone anti freeze, two gallons, and then a gallon and one half of water. Let the air come out when it was running. At 140 I put the cap on and ran it for a 10 miler up some good steep hills. Temps stayed at 180, rising only to 190, and 200 for a short time on the longest and steepest hill. No burping. Engine sounded happy. Even at idle in the driveway in the sun with only the electric fan going, 215 at the most. Again no boil over. Cant say the 160 thermos were the answer, but the size of the holes may have been key.
gotta say the temps of 200,215 are still pretty high.At idle i get 180 no more,i use distilled water as opposed to regular water as it is hard water and can leave deposits.I use two bottles of water wetter and an aluminum radiator,make sure its timed right as well,where i live i dont use antifreeze.I drive it all day long in the heat of so cal,never have overheated.timing is a big part of this over heating issue.
Old Timer told me once, "its a flathead,,, if its not boiling over, its not hot." But I would also suggest a good distributor, my cooling problems went away when I put sbc dizzy in it.
I'm a believer in those high flow stats but hope you have better luck than me with the MrG versions. I've found the robertshaw high-flow to be much more reliable but also hard to locate sometimes. I think they're also stainless instead of brass. Good luck and happy cruising!
Whats the point of running a Flathead if you have an electric fan, MSD, aluminum radiator and a four barrel?
The point is to: To Not overheat, correctly and easily time the motor, and maybe make it actually drivable beyond the city limits? Sound's like he actually likes driving the car, not standing on the side of the road calling AAA on his cell, all in the name of 'TRADITIONAL'. If all these non-traditional options were avail in the 40's, they would've taken advantage of all of them. You wanna look 'cool' or haul ass?
Ya know what I have had it. You build your car the way you want, I will build my car the way I want. I thought the HAMB was about sharing information, supporting others, enjoying what they do with their ideas and abilities with old iron. If it is then count me in. If its only about YOUR view of what cars are to be, then count me out. Because I never want to see then, based on your views, ANOTHER "S10 Frame Swap List, or a T5 Conversion, or what PAINT to use. Is Paint traditional? If it is I am sure its only flat black, rust or laquer. NO independent suspensions, NO JAGS. NO Benz, Jaguar or Rolls Royce Merlin Engines. In fact, no forgien cars at all. I have been on the HAMB long enough to know what is what. For the most part the overall community has a clue. IF its so traditional what are you doing on a computer for goodness sake. When the old Alliance membership is over, so am I. To those of you who are helpful I thank you.
Fuck yea Ken. His post was neither helpful, or useful, but just the same ole' HAMB judgemental bullshit insertion that seems to permeate thread after thread. You didn't ask for peoples 'opinion' if your solution was 'acceptable' or 'traditional' but yet people still feel the need to talk shit. A baffling 6000+ posts, and that is is all that person has to contribute? Where's old GERM when we need him!! Oh yea.. he got banned.. I, for one am interested in your cooling experiments with your flathead. Keep the info coming.... And for the others who want to internet-battle, let's all hear about their solutions to the problem, with constructive input, not interweb bitch-slaps. I think we all realize there many ways to skin a cat. If someone has found a good solution to absolutely eliminate the need for aftermarket dizzys, electric fans and 4bbl's, then i'm totally down to hear all about it... But to just pull the 'it's not traditional' red flag helps no one.. Just sayin..
rolls Royce merlin engine isn't traditional? geez it's only from WW2, and thanks for trying to post something useful I appreciate it.
sorry to hear that ken1939,i hope you dont quit this forum,what you have to contribute is valuable,you gotta have thick skin to some degree.I am selective with what i want to read on this forum,it works.You can listen to all the know alls,big mouths,hard assed experts,that are on here,but what matters is how you want your ride.50,60 years ago there were no computers and talking shit was handled in the parking lot,now its from the comfort of your desk chair.Roll how you want, it dont matter what we think,go forth and burn rubber.
Have not seen the word pressure............flat heads run pressure or not? Higher Temps require raising the boiling point of water, if there is altitude then even more pressure. Do not rule out raising the pressure to alleviate cooling system issues as well. This is seen on Heavy Duty Trucks crossing the Rocky's.
Right on ken1939 I get tired of the smart ass comments when I or someone else is trying to learn or figure some thing out!!!!!
Pressure is more about better control of cooling than higher boiling point. If you are getting above normal atmospheric boiling point you are headed for trouble, and the pressure cap is only going to get you 2 more miles down the road before it cooks off... Yunick studied this stuff, and if I understand him correctly the backpressur caused by thermostats and the pressure that develops under a pressure cap even when engine is not real hot both act to suppress local hotspots. Apparently all engines have localized bad flow areas that boil even when whole setup is not overheated, and pressure helps suppress the problems, which can include detonation and odd cylinder wear in localized areas.
it's simple, the higher the pressure, the higher the temp required for it to boil,it's simple physics, pressure in a closed system is going to be the same at al points in the system, This is why you can boil water in your hand in outer space, no pressure, same reason your blood would boil if your suit failed. the opposite extreme, black smoker vents on the sea floor, water is 400 degrees yet isn't boiling, the extreme pressure stops it. If you raise the pressure in the system, the boiling point follows. This is also why i run antifreez in everything, it's not only prevents freezing,it also raises the boiling point, not to mention the corrosion inhibitors. The only reason they didn't run it in the old days,was it hadn't been invented yet. The higer pressure also explains why you should never open a hot cap on a cooling system, the pressure drop causes the coolant to instantly boil and come shooting out the radiator
Any discussion of how to keep an engine of any kind in any old car is usually a good one. So many have tried so many tricks and parts and fluids it amzing and often amusing. Many of us have had great help from these discussions and ride cool due to them.
he put different temperature thermostats in and was suprised that it ran at a different temp? not worth all this hubbaloo.
I've found (with much needed help) from the HAMB community that what works for one car might not work for another. I've been "working" on my flathead set up for a while now and have only recently been able to "control" the temps.... 1. New Offenhauser regular dual intake 2. New/rebuilt and updated Holley 94's with progressive linkage 3. Cleaned, repaired and pressure tested radiator 4. 180 degreee thermostats - tried running none, washers, etc...180 worked best 5. Coolant, water and water wetter combination 6. Found top dead center (or thereabouts) and made timing mark on block 7. Inspected and cleaned old points on the original crab dizzy - need new ones soon 8. Set idle, timing and advance correctly (all done by good friend Crazydaddyo) My old flattie will now run 180 to 190 on a regular basis around town and on the warmest days may reach 200 in heavy traffic only but will drop right back down when we get moving. With constructive assistance and respectful suggestions to posted questions on the HAMB, I am still working towards the goal of having a dependable, cool running, traditional ride. I could not have done this without the HAMB community and the great friends that I have met here. I wouldn't be willing to give that all up so easily...keep at it.
My experiences were that a lower thermostat automatically meant a cooler running engine. Thats why I didnt want to get into the theologial debate about should you run 160s or 140s etc. I think the engine being at 180 is important for combustion to work right. Granted newer pressurized modern cars run at 220 normally. Yes the water starting to flow to the radiator to complete the loop sooner is a good idea, but sometimes mixing components will give a different result than desired. my two cents
That statement is only valid if the radiator can remove heat faster than the engine produces it. In this case, your description of the overheating indicates the engine is making more heat than the radiator can cope with. So even though you don't want to touch on the debate, it's actually extremely relevant. Once the therms open, the system is steady state. Opening therms sooner will not increase the radiator's ability to remove heat. Your cylinders are making the same amount of heat regardless of the therm's opening point, and regardless of coolant temps. And your steady state is an unbalanced system. Make sense?? good luck
Ken, Dont take Muttley's tidbit to heart. This crowd is alittle rough around the edges at times. Stick around... not everyone thinks a traditional engine has to have all the traditional goodies on here. Most do not.. Glad to hear you found your problem. The general rule.. the flathead usually runs 100 degrees above the mean temperature. Before I would repeat temperatures here be sure the gauge is accurate. most are not. Your 215 degree temp may actually be lower. I bought a temp gun and stopped worrying about my gauge readings years ago. The 205-210 temp on my gauges were actually at 180-185. Your other option, if the gauges are accurate, are high velocity pumps. (skip haneys) Your MSD is not a plug and play. Measure your initial timing and advance settings.. I don't like to run a pressurized system just for the sake of increasing the boiling point. But I do like the idea of using one to prevent overflow at high rpm. Many flatheads will stay cool until you run them at long distances at 65-70 until they start loosing coolant. The pressurized system provides a good tattletale sign of a compression leak in the system when you can't control the overflow. As said before, every flathead behaves differently. You just need to find the right combination. Good luck and drive that flatty!
You said you put 2 gallons antifreeze and 1.5 water? Does 50/50 pertain to flatheads? Antifreeze raises boiling point, but my understanding is distilled water disperses heat more efficiently. Maybe a different ratio heavier on the water would help?
Pressure system is not just for higher boiling point, and if you NEED a higher boiling point you are on the verge of disaster already! Pressure system goes a bit positive under normal temps, I guess from allthe expansion, and the pressure helps suppress local mini hotspots. The downside is that most older radiators are not happy with more than minimal pressure. Tank structure not meant for pressure...I quit using pressure cap on my '48 because seeing the upper tank pop in and out as car warmed up or as it cooled down after use made me nervous. The pressure is normal part of operation far below boiling.
That was my understanding too... There's no such thing as "Simple Phyisics" in a combustion engine... It's all quite complicated and involves many interdependant factors... Pressure forces the water to flow through the hot spots and prevents cavitation by forcing the water against the impellers... Higher thermostat temps allows the water to stay in the radiator longer and dissapate more heat... Water is a better heat conductor that coolant, that's why a motor would run cooler on straight water instead of coolant... If it was me, I would try to run more distilled water... Maybe one bottle of coolant just cause it's Penn... And the rest distilled water. And 180 therms... Personally, I love electric fans and MSD dizzys... Because they work and are clean installs... Oh, yeah... A thicker skin is important in anything you love... If you run off at the first conflict, people get the feeling you don't give a shit...
Ken, its guys like you and many other Hambers that experiment ...the early gows and hoppers were into experimentation and trial and error...
Slowing the flow through the radiator is not the answer, nor is it the reason some overheating issues are solved by installing a higher-temp thermostat. If you are running a radiator that has just enough capacity to keep your engine cool, and you increase the temperature rating of the thermostat, you are putting hotter water into the radiator. What you now have is a greater temperature differential between the radiator fins and the air moving through the radiator (160-degree thermostat and 100-degree air is a 60 degree differential, with a 180 degree thermostat the differential is 80 degrees) A greater temperature differential between these two "things" means that more heat can be removed, and the system becomes more efficient at removing a given amount of heat. The rate of flow through the system is unchanged. And by the way, how many of the folks on here that scream "It's not traditional!" have a battery in their machine that has six cells instead of three?
This thread is bordering on drama. First & last call to chill. On to the topic. Bruce, as usual, has hit the nail on the head re: Yunick's pressure discourse. A few things to note: If you need to raise the pressure to increase the boiling point on a flathead (or many vintage engines), you're masking the real problem and asking for more/new problems. Water is more efficient at removing heat quickly than coolant, however, there have been some tests that demonstrate that over time, coolant will remove the same total amount of heat. I'm not 100% sold on the advantages of coolant in non-freezing weather just yet though...I'm still a 100% water (when not freezing, then only min req'd anti-freeze to maintain safety for my block). I also run a wetting agent and a corrosion inhibiter - take your choice on them. T-stats are a must - I prefer 170-180* t-stats to get the engine up to temp quickly and reduce condensation. Especially important for those folks who may not drive their cars as often or as long as others. A clean system & proper timing are givens. If you're still overheating after all of that, you've got an issue somewhere other than the cooling system. At the end of the day, only two things will help - more flow and a bigger radiator.
In looking at the two thermostat openings, to me it was that enough water was unable to pass through the opening to even get the chance to cool. I dont know what the gpm of the pumps are to compare to the system, but I can imagine they are, well so so at best. Even the stock type in hose thermostats had different flow openings. I do not know how much cavitation occurs in that block with those pumps, I realize one works on each side of the block, but it made me wonder.
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