Free Desoto Hemi Update - Carnage & Some advice from fellow Desoto Hemi Dudes?

Some of you may remember this earlier post regarding the free hemi:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386889&highlight=free+hemi
For those of you that are keeping track I wanted to give y'all an update and hopefully get some advice as well. For those of you that are new, welcome aboard.

Steve finally finished up some dissertation or something else important (he's smart, ya' know) and finally found a few hours to come on over to pull this free hemi apart. I promised him I'd wait to unwrap the beast but it was hard since that engine was calling out to me for the last three weeks, "Sam, don't you want to see what's hiding under the covers?" Yeah, she's a flirt.

Anyhow, yesterday dawned rainy and miserable and Steve dropped in and we set to it. It should be mentioned that while removing the torque converter-flywheel thingamajiggy to mount the engine on the stand, it turned over. An engine that sat for 50+ years turned over. No joke. I think all that time laying in the air on its side protected from the worst of the elements allowed all the oil to drain into the top half keeping the cylinder walls well lubed. Just a tip for anyone who wants to store a neat vintage engine for future generations. Okay. Moving on.

Steve insisted on a picture, so here I am, still happy as hell I have a hemi in my garage.


All was proceeding well and we were amazed at the overall condition of the heads and lack of rust. Since the heads are basically the most important thing on this engine, I wanted to make damned sure I didn't fuck anything up beyond repair and the Desoto manual(s) I scored cheap off the 'bay demystified a lot. We removed the left head without incident, and after carefully and scientifically cataloging each specimen on a somewhat clean scrap of cardboard on my garage floor, we moved on to the right head.
Doesn't Steve look happy?


And that's when we both went, "Huh?" That #7 piston's sitting just a wee bit too high right there. Uh-oh.


Sure enough, now that the heads were off and we were able to rotate the harmonic dampener by hand, we discovered that old number 7 had thrown a rod. I'm not going to lie, at this point I was trying not to panic and convince myself that it really didn't matter if we went through all this work for a very pretty boat anchor, but I would have been PISSED if the journey had stopped right there. I had visions of the rod firmly embedded into cylinder walls and general explosive disarray. So, with breath held, we flipped over the engine, removed the oil pan and breathed a huge sigh of relief. Aside from a couple slight dings (okay, maybe a small chunk out of the bottom of the cylinder wall that could be sleeved in a worse case scenario) a few gentle taps with a mallet and poor number seven slid neatly out into my waiting paws.

It's kind of beautiful in a sick twisted way, huh? I'm going to put this on my desk until I can figure out the best way to incorporate this mangled rod into my Essex. We're thinking a short shifter at the moment.

Upon removing the rest of the pistons, we discovered 3 spun bearings (here's a picture of the best one, it's hard to tell, but the end of that sucker looks like a steak knife and is wafer thin) Which came first, the thrown rod or the spun bearings? My money is on the rod.


And that's where we hit an amazingly strong roadblock. Last week I posted a thread asking about vintage tools and how you dudes overcame the obstacles and this is why. For the life of me (and believe me, we tried) we couldn't figure out how to get this waterpump/timing cover assembly off with regular old pullers and Yankee ingenuity.
The manual shows the use of two different tools to get the entire job done. I'm thinking I might have to make them, but I was hoping some fellow low-deck Desoto gurus would chime in with how they overcame this obstacle.
Here are the diagrams from the manuals. (Hey, how come my hands aren't that clean?)

and ...


So that's where we ended up yesterday afternoon. More to follow when we figure out how in tarnation to get that waterpump housing off. Any words of wisdom are REALLY appreciated. Until then, thanks for reading.

 

Wow! I wonder if I'm going to run into anything like that cover removal problem when I take apart my '53 331 Chrysler. I never would have guessed you had to have a puller for the front cover! That does suck about the rod and bearing damage, but hopefully you can bring it back to life!

 

That sucks about the rod! My 54 331 cover came off easy without puller. Good luck on the dampner.

 

My '53 331 Chrysler cover was a bitch to get off, but they do come off...IIRC there are a couple bolts hidden under the water pump, and another hidden somewhere else...lots of prying, tapping with a rubber mallet, prying, tapping, prying and more tapping and it finally popped off...now go buy a fucking lottery ticket, cause hemi's are known to seize up in very short time (mine sat a year and was lubed and full of oil)...they're high tolerances make them prone to seizing easy, and I think your spun bearings definately helped keep it loosened up...

 

Nice looking rod! I'm a bit more neanderthal on these kinds of things, but there are 2 pins in the block that hold the cover. If all the bolts are out, I give it some whacks top and bottom, then wedge a chisel in between the cover and the block. Good luck.

 

Usually the spun bearings come first, then a rod goes. Could be that the rod went and the loss of oil pressure caused the bearings to spin. A couple of "forensics" tips: If the big end of the rod shows some "blueing" from heat, most likely a bearing failure occurred first. And of course a quick inspection of the bearing from that rod will tell the whole story. If the bearing is still good, the rod failed, and if the bearing is "spun", well, then that obviously happened first.

Chrysler timing chain covers are easier to remove than Desoto's. The Chrysler has a tin cover that is simply a timing chain cover and place to mount the fuel pump. The Desoto front cover is a much larger cast piece that incorporates the water pump as well.

 

The rod has the look of spun / seized bearing. Then the rod wiggled enough to bend and brake. The important thing now is the rod jurnols on the crank. Hope they will clean up by .030 under. Lots of pullers will work on your dampener and a rubber hamer will work on the cover. Your in tall clover.

 

Except the early extended bellshousing 331's. They have big cast iron waterpump/timing cover castings on the front also.
V/8

 

Gigantor, you & Steve keep heart. You don't know what's there until all's said & done. The rods sure remind me of the 291 Firedome my stupid uncle made out of a PREVIOUSLY great motor by running it low on oil. But he folded TWO con rods. Genius, eh?

You seem to be PATIENT guys, and you're asking advice from good guys.

I'd just GO EASY & try removing all visible bolts to the blot on that cover, then use two or three chissels (as Pogpatch mentioned here) to wedge in between that & the block. Long as you aren't damaging the cover, no harm in TRYING thta first, eh?

Do yo know what YEAR the 331 came from? If '54, kippers said his came off easy, while Ruiner said his was a BITCH. So, again, just go SLOW. If you ge frustrated & FORCE osmething, you may be looking for a new cover, ya know? I believe this can work out fine.

 

Engine looks pretty good in the pictures!!! Looks repairable....I didn't have as good of luck with my Desoto, I bought a complete 55 291 Desoto about 3 years ago, finally decided to take a look inside, I knew from the beginning it was froze up. Well, not knowing wht to expect, popped the pan and a couple bearings, looked good, then took the heads off, not so good, No. 1 cylinder has a crack protruding into the cylinder....put it back together....now its garage art. Gonna talk to an engine builder in the future, hoping its repairable....
Good luck with your build!!!

 

I bad cylinder and you gave up? Mine has five sleeves...

Actually ALL of my Hemis need sleeves... 331's, 354, 392, 291... no big deal.

 

The "death" of my '54 276 was also a spun rod bearing, but nothing bent. The engine cleaned up fine. The rod journals are .030 under, the main are .010 under and the standard cylinders only needed a hone, no lie. Lucky me! Hopefully, yours will turn out similar. Congrats on the score!

I don't remember my timing case being an issue, although it was 10 years ago that I took it apart. Certainly at worst I tapped on it with a mallet some and slid a screwdriver or the like behind it to ease it the rest of the way off if anything.

 

here's a pic of that bolt that is hidden behind the
water pump.
Rich

 

I think the ease of front cover removal is just a total crapshoot...I've known guys that had to torch and soak the cover at the guide pins (heat and spray with creeping oil) to get them loose, mine was just a lot of wiggling with small prybars and a rubber mallet, and some guys have theirs practically fall off...that stupid bolt behind the water pump is a killer, and I seem to recall another one hiding under the gunk and crud on the outside of the water pump area just below the pump...

 

Thanks for the words of advice and encouragement gentleman. I don't know if I ever would have noticed that bolt INSIDE the waterpump housing until I had beat my head against it in frustration for a few days. Good to know.
Before I get that housing off though, I have to figure out a way to get the hub that mounts the pulley and dampener off the end of the crankshaft. That's the rub right now. Maybe I just need a better puller with more oomph. I see a trip to the tool store on my lunch break today. Thanks again!

 

Maybe you can use or modify a steering-wheelpuller for the job.
I also think the bearings went first, then the rod. My guess is you'll find a clogged up oil filter and pickup somewhere, which might be the cause of the trashed bearings.

 

A steering wheel puller is a GREAT idea. Thanks!

 

The first pic shows the puller mounted ready to use. The second
pic shows the puller, and the small round metal washer I use
to protect the front of the crank. In the fore ground is the
installer which screw into the front of the crank. It has
several adapters to fit different size threads. (from Summit)
Rich

 

Thanks Rich B. I went and picked up a harmonic dampener puller similar to that at lunch. I might have to engineer a few things to make sure I don't damage the crank, but that looks like it would do the trick.

 

I'm away from my shop so no pics to follow, but if you have access to a lathe, then drill into the head of the retaining bolt about ¼" and then hit the hole with a countersink. You now have a place for the business end of the puller to nest and no damage to the crank.


.

 

^^^ That's one of the main problems we ran into Saturday with my puller wanting to walk off that bolt...

 

It is great to see you finally got that ole hemi out of the woods. I am going to Eastbrook this weekend and will check in on the Sedan Delivery.

 

Another quick tip for easier dampner removal is to heat up the dampner and crank area with a MAPP gas torch and get it warm (doesn't need to be smoking hot) and spray it down with PB Blaster or Kano Kroil or Gibbs, etc...let it soak in and repeat once or twice...the heat and creeping oil help each other loosen up any rust and crud that might get in your way...good luck, and take your time...

 

Ruiner, would that work for 2 old cars with all 4 hubs stuck from rust? Right NOW, I have to get 2 cars out before winter OR LOSE THEM.

I'm about at th epoint of hiirng a dozer to jerk 'em out. Whadya think? Runnin' out of warm waether, buddy.

 

It works for practically everything...it's my secret weapon for freeing up frozen '30's door hinges...the big trick for drum brakes is taking the wheels off and bangin on the drums with a 2 or 3 pound sledge to unstick the brake shoes...I also used to have a round plate with multiple bolt patterns drilled in it and a 4 foot pipe welded to it...take the wheel off, bolt the plate on and jump on the pipe to break the brake shoes free...you could do the same with a multi-lug pattern steel wheel, or just a steel wheel with the bolt pattern you need for that particular car...

 

If they won't roll, the brake shoes are rusted into the drums. You have to pull the drums and gut the brakes. Fronts aren't too hard usually, take the spindle nut and outer bearing off, break or nip the shoe pins, unbolt the wheel cylinder, pry them out enough to get in and pry the shoes off. Rears are harder, you may need a puller. Or you can do the quick and dirty way, use a torch or grinder and just cut the drum around the edge, but if the drums are hard to find that's not always a good idea. And Mopar you need a puller for the rear anyways because of the tapered axles. In fact you should buy a special heavy duty puller for them.

But if you can get close to them with a rollback, get them up out of the ground and the winch will drag them right on. Not cheap but probably cheaper than a dozer.

 

I didn't get a chance to make another attempt last night, but plan on doing it this evening after work.
However, Steve contacted me yesterday and said he found a timing cover/waterpump conversion on hotheads.com that allows you to bolt a timing chain cover on and then run a regular old small block chevy waterpump. Huh?
Has anyone heard of this or done it? I'm imagining it would cut down on weight by about 50 pounds or so and finding small block chevy waterpumps is a piece of cake compared to the core and rebuild costs of the hemi pump... something tells me the actual waterflow would be better too keeping the Hemi cooler.
Has anyone done this?

Hodad - have fun in Eastbrook and I look forward to hearing about that sedan delivery.

 

Check scootermcrad's hemi index, there should be a section for front covers and water pumps...IIRC you'll need a later model timing cover with the seperate pump...not sure if Desoto hemi's can do the conversion, I think it's just for Chrysler hemi's...

 

RustyNY, SORRY, I didn't mean to hijack the thread, but the rusted hubs seemed to cross the theme. You gave me some good ideas a couple of weeks ago, AND they were good! I CAN skid the 2 old cars, now that I have them out of the ground AND with decent inflated tired subbed on there.

WhAT's NOW keeping me awake at night is: THERE IS NO WAY I can get a trailer down this steep bank, THEN pull it (with car loaded) up that bank. A local wrecker guy was no help. He had a price, and he said if HE, TOO, got stuck, he'd tack on the cost of THAT.

I'm gonna try the creeping oil, beating with hammer to loosen, THEN try & get the hubs off & get the old brakes out of the way. I do think the rear of the '38 requires a hub puller (and I'll try & scare one up).

Realistically, I think my best course is to get these in ROLLING (not just "dragging") shape. THEN I use the log chaine to get 'em up TOP where things are FLAT. If I get that done, it should not be much of a problem to get them onto the trailer I have available. I recently bought a Maasdam PowrPullr with one-ton pull. Heck that should pull any car onto a trailer, at least on level ground, I'd think.

 

BTW: I need to decide on a course of action & get 'er done before cold, wet weather comes around again. IF I fail to get these wheels a rollin', I just MAY have to go the dozer/crawler route. Natch, I don't want to DO that, BUT if if cmes down to leaving them there another winter and getting them where they need to be, well . . .

ANY furhter thoughts are VERY welcome!!!