Machining Stuff,,The Law of finding center

Wing, You might want to look at where the pilot bushing or bearing sits in the crank and if there is room to seat it 1/4 inch farther back. Which would help you on lenth. On my Packard engine Ford trans I had to move the pilot bushing 1/2 inch to the rear which was OK cause there was enough bore to do that. The hole in the Packard crank was much larger that the Ford bushing so I made an aluminum bushing to make up the differance. Maybe you can get a carpenter to whittle one for you or your machinist buddys are going to have to get involved.

 

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Or just make two lines in the circle and then bisect them at 90 degrees. Where the bisections connect will ALWAYS be center.

 

All these are good for getting lines on paper. How do they help getting the input shaft and front bearing of the transmission centered with the rear main on the Chevy crankshaft?

 

Rich, I don't think it's possible now! Lippy

 

Lippy, I think you may well be right. We have talked this deal to death. In the future no one will want to ask a question like this again. They will slap some super glue on the trans face and run it.

 

I have no idea what it is you do for a living, but I have a hard time beleiveing it's a machinist. Quality micrometers are extremely accurate, right down to less than 1/10 of 1/1000 of an inch. A human hair is roughly 3/1000 of an inch as is a sheet of paper, so you can only imagine how little .0001" really is. There is nothing even remotely true about your long-winded hypothetical situations except that people are fallible when it comes to machine work. You are 100% wrong on your thinking about everything from laser alignment to accurate measuring and everything in between. So I gotta know exactly what do you do for a living? My guess? Cement work or perhaps drywall guy. Am I close?

 

ok so I have this right,,your talking about how deep the bearing sits in teh crankshaft hole ?

 

Yes you have it right. Sometimes you can move it foward or back.

 

So torch, who did invent the micrometer?

 

I really didn't have a need to know until today. Let me look it up a minute

According to Wiki:
History of the device and its name



The word micrometer is a neocl***ical coinage from Greek micros, "small", and metron, "measure". Merriam-Webster Collegiate[3] says that English got it from French and that its first known appearance in English writing was in 1670. Neither the metre nor the micrometre nor the micrometer (device) as we know them today existed at that time. However, humans of that time did have much need for, and interest in, the ability to measure small things, and small differences; the word no doubt was coined in reference to this endeavor, even if it did not refer specifically to its present-day senses.

The first ever micrometric screw was invented by William Gascoigne in the 17th century, as an enhancement of the vernier; it was used in a telescope to measure angular distances between stars. Its adaptation for the precise measurement of handheld objects was made by Jean Laurent Palmer of Paris in 1848[4]; the device is therefore often called palmer in French, and tornillo de Palmer ("Palmer screw") in Spanish. (Those languages also use the micrometer cognates: micromètre, micrómetro.) The micrometer caliper was introduced to the m*** market in anglophone countries by Brown & Sharpe in 1867,[5] allowing the penetration of the instrument's use into the average machine shop. Brown & Sharpe were inspired by several earlier devices, one of them being Palmer's design. In 1888 Edward Williams Morley added to the precision of micrometric measurements and proved their accuracy in a complex series of experiments.

Gascoigne's Micrometer as drawn by Robert Hooke

 

Just put the thing together and wiggle it around... Center is in the middle. Don't worry about why, the gods don't intend it to be known.

 

You could go with a new bushing with a shoulder to bring it out, which would give it side to side support if it is out of the pilot hole. Of course it would have to be made up, a fairly simple job for a good machinist that understands fits. I'd suggest something like alloy 464 or oilite bronze.

Bob

 

Found one over the weekend ,,was bolted up to an old 37 top shift,,( still gonna make my own as well ) Though I noticed this one ( think its an offenhauser ) they went a different route,,you actually remove the bearing retainers no big hole to lil hole not sure why and I'm guessing different throw out bearing that fits the input shaft ? not sure what all the lil holes are for ,have to see if I can find some old offenhauser install instructions..I would have never though or removing the retainer all together so lil digging for info is in order,,
and again still gonna make my own

 

Ok, It's too early in the AM for me but that adapter is strange IMO.

It sure looks like a chevy trans bolted to a bell that was on a LaSalle top shift/and LaSalle sideshift/and 50 Olds.

I could be REAL wrong, but right this moment, I believe that adapter would put a chev Muncie/Borg trans onto an early Cad OVH v8/ or a 50 Olds bell.

Just look at the 4 big bolt hole not threaded, and the other smaller threaded holes for the trans to bolt to. ???????

Do you have a Lasalle case right there to try it on?...or a chev trans...or chev bell? That would help figure it out IMO


EDIT: I am wrong. It can't put a chev Muncie/Borg to a Cad/Olds bell because the chev input shaft is already too short to reach the cad/olds pilot in the crank...even without a thick adapter. So I don't know.

 

It's got the step to fit into the bellhousing I guess. But no bearing retainer? That dosn't sound right. Besides not retaning the bearing and gear lube what would the throwout bearing ride on? Once again I don't get it. What else is new.

 

I don't myself But the cragar ones were made the same way ,,this is Packard to Ford.

Do all Throw outs ride on a retainer thought some were on teh shaft ?

 

Most do. Old VW bug up to 1970 does not

Being that that adapter has retainer holes, the retainer must bolt to the adapter. Sounds strange, but if that adapter holds the front trans bearing "in", then an added retainer with the TOB tube should be fine....if it all fits.

 

Any I have ever seen the input shaft p***es through a sleeve cast as part of the bearing retanier. And i have seen a lot of them. There must be some Machining (oh no) on the retanier to fit into the recess on the trans side of the adapter. It looks as though the adapter acts as the bearing retanier and has the bolt holes for that. This one has the diameters that I wanted you to use as locaters. Sort of. Whats it fet like on the trans? With and without the retainer? I am courious. Maybe F&J has it. You would need to do something with the OD and lenth of the retanier I would guess if you did that. I sure wish I was where I could see this. It has me going.

 

The plot thickens ,,will update asap

 

It looks like the adapter picks up on the OD of the front retainer and on the bellhousing on the flip side. That would maintain the centerline accuracy of the whole works.

The extra holes around the retainer might be clearance holes for the bolts that hold on the retainer, or the retainer could bolt through those holes as well. Possibly a tad on the overkill side IMHO. The one looks like it might have a dual pattern to fit alternate retainer patterns.

Bob

 

I need asprins I am still studying that first adapter, trying to figure which end is what....and trying to work on my build today

Ok, here's a couple pics.

The bell in question is on the right..Lasalle pattern/50 Olds/and side shift LaSalle.

The RED trans is the LaSalle, the gutted case on the right is 50 Olds or also known as side shift LaSalle. They have the same bell pattern.

See how the LaSalle trans& 50 Olds has one TOP mounting bolt hole way out to the upper right side of the car?? ...that means LW's pics are upside down....making it even more fun to figure out.

The side pic shows the slip-on, no bolt retainers which get clamped in when you install the trans...Oh, and BTW, these all require a full gasket shaped like the trans case, on the bell, due to design.

 

So,,,I an guessing that these slip on sleeves are or could be made from the old original bearing retainer? Thanks much for the pics. they have been worth 1000 words.

 

Yes I suppose they could, but you'd have to keep quite a few critical dimensions in mind to get the correct crush on the gasket as well as keeping the sleeve and front trans bearing firmly seated after the gasket crushes. (Like I said, the gasket covers the entire face of the trans case).

BTW, even though the 2 slide on sleeves look the same and are GM from the same time period, the 2 are different due to front bearing diameter difference between the LaSalle/50 Olds and the GM Selector type transmissions. Lord knows if other GM Selectors use the same one as my 55 Olds Selector in that pic.

Back to L.W.'s first adapter, I'd bet it uses a bolt on TOB/bearing retainer, or why else would patterns be there???

I'll look at that adapter later and try to figure if it fits to a LaS trans or a LaS bell. Look at her 2nd pic in closeup. You can see lockwasher marks on the largest hole pattern, and I think that may be the key to figure out what part it really was bolted to....and what end faces the front.

 

It may or like yours captuares a part of the old retainer, now just a guide sleeve for the throwout bearing, behind the adapter in the seen recess. But still incorporate the four bolts that were used to hold the bearing retainer on in the stock configuration. And the vent oil hole. Now we go back to page one and still don't know how that one located on the bellhousing, but having been enlightend some I at least have some idea of how it may work. Or maybe it just didn't. Could have been built by a carpenter who jsut didn't care.

 

I've been looking at the first adapter in post 104 for 10 minutes trying to see how that could possibly bolt to the front of a LaS trans. It looks backwards!!...meaning the machined in recesses for what I ***ume is to hold the input bearing are on the wrong side of the adapter. of couse I don't know if that recess is really to retain an input bearing.

However, if you look at the face of the red LaSalle trans and note where the longest bolt web is, then the first pic in post 104 is the side that a LaSalle can fit to. But that has a protruding boss which would not fit against the protruding bearing on the red trans. That's why I said it looks backwards to me.

That protruding boss in the first pic in 104 "must" be the side where a bolt-on bearing retainer was meant to go. It can't fit the other side the way it looks. Dual patterns for 2 different bearing retainers??

I am not thinking well today, but I still think that adapter fits a bell with a LaSalle pattern. But what trans?? I am starting to "not see" a chevy pattern on that adapter. Comments?? i am lost here.

 

Go to post #42. This is the "adapter" that LW wants to use and what started all this. The aluminum adapters make lots more sense to me. Maybe the photo is flopped in post 104

 

Yeah not a Lasalle gotta see if I can find details on teh Adapter may be an old Speed Gems

 

Awesomeness

 

Rich Fox is a wealth of experience and information. He has been more than generous in providing answers to my questions through PMs and emails and this is an offer I'd surely take up if I were anywhere near him.

Little Wing this is a great thread and I think the ***le you picked has attracted the folks with the information necessary to accomplish the task at hand. It's a little over my head too and I'm gonna have to read through here several more times to wrap my mind around the concepts. Good luck with your project.

 

Last obstacle stage ( still making my own even though I got the aluminum one,,)

The retainer

now since I need a 1/2 inch difference on the input shaft

how do I figure that into the Chevy fork and bearing ?? do I just use the Packard bearing will there still be enough retainer shaft with it set back ??


How does one figure out this part of the show ??