you are the dream customer,we are just tryin' to achieve 'close enoughness' on 90% of resale shit so we can put 100% into the worthy 10 % don' t forget you gotta turn 30% of the jobs away[shit jobs,no profit jobs,and most of all thankless asshole pricks] that think they own u and ur shop for chump money what do you mean,u cant skim ,block and paint, buff and final assy. in an hour,boyd usta do it every week!oh yeah,i forgot,couple guys can get the thing apart and metal finish/prep and trial fab and fit in the first half hour.don't forget these totaly 'frosted' plastic gapped pieces of 'art' only cost $50 ++++ grand.
I feel for you guys. I've been through it myself. The conclusion I've come too, is you can explain your self until you're blue in the face, but the bottom line is they really don't care. People have selective hearing when it comes to spending their money. Why do you think so many people go to wal mart rather than long standing independent businesses? Hacks are cheap. If you're lucky you'll get a newcomer to the game who will do good work for hack prices. I don't do anybody favors anymore . I just let one go back home without a paint job after pricking with the owner for almost 5 years. The bottom line is I do the job the way I see fit or you take it back home undone. If I'm putting my name on the work I do and on your car, I'm not going to cut corners. I do exceptional work, and I don't even charge that much. But I'd rather deliver pizzas at night then waste my time losing my ass working on junk.
This is why I have a nice arrangement with my brother, I do all his heavy fabwork (frames, suspension, etc...) and the machanical junk, and he does my bodywork, paint, etc... basically, I make 'em work, he makes 'em pretty. He does this stuff for a living, custom paint, restos, hot rods, airbrush, pinstripe, a real artist. Once I gave him a pistol in trade for collision work cause he really didn't wanna mess with it.
My paint guy took one look at my Henry "J" and told me to bring him a ten pound box of 100 dollar bills and then we could start talking about him doing the "J". I understood where he was coming from
Took my Austin-Healey down to the chassis, stripped the paint to bare metal, sandblasted and patched the rusty areas, metal bumped and filled, primed and blocked and had a pro shoot the bc/cc. Gave me a real clear idea of the phrase, "It's body Work, not body fun!" Can't imagine how hard it must be to try to do this for a living and make a profit.
Why do they cost so much? Well she has to pay the pimp, probably has a 'habit' and 6 kids at home to feed. oh, Wait...... you said PAINT. Sorry.
Well nice to see a few understand. Sadly, looking over the monthlys can take the enthusiast right outta ya sometimes. Shop rates vary for sure. We're busy at $65/hr for partials and $60/hr for total restoration. Each worker 1 week should turn an average near $2500 but it seldom happens. There's down time. usually about 20-25%. It happens and there's little you can do about it. Can't charge more since the overall range for our gig is right there, and like I said we're busy. Knowing when to say no is just as important and profitable as when to say yes. Quality? I always expect it's a forgone conclusion before they walk in. Wrong. So one of my pitches has always been that if price is your 1st priority I'm the last guy you want to talk to. I never got paid for an hr I didn't earn and I've given more to my goodwill than many would consider. But like I said we're busy so I can't bitch. Anyone that thinks this shit is free or cheap for top level quality is simply wrong. When someone asks me to do something for an unreal low price I tell em if what I do could be had that cheap I'd have it myself. With the degree of angst that goes into this craft there's still nothing more rewarding than a finished product, stock or kustom. That's why we do it. If I wanted to make a small fortune in restoration it'd be easier to start with a big one.
I build hotrods because I love to. I love taking somebodies junk and building it to be better than new. I love the sound of the hammer striking metal ,shaping it into a new panel. I love that I can do this for a living and am enjoying it even though some people like to gripe about the price. I would rather explain the price, than apologize for the lack of ability.
It's funny, I was talking to a customer of mine...on and off for over 25 years, last night, at a cruise night. He had heard a guy badmouthing my work on a very recent job I did, and he jumped in to defend me, point by point, on all the guy's complaints...more than HALF of them didn't even have anything to do with the job I did! (oh,,,he wasn't the owner, either, just a friend of the owner) In some respects, I'm kind of lucky...I have done this for about 34 years, only "full time" by myself, for a couple years, then back to part time. So I have a little more control over the cars I do, though money still talks, and I do some resto work on muscle cars, and do other "OT" work. The best part, is to have buddies like the one I mentioned. I tell ALL my customers in the beginning, they can stop over any time to see progress on their car, I don't hide anything! They can come by and work on theri cars, if they like, so they can reduce their bills, and also see what kind of work is going into their cars. I had a guy probably do 20,000 worth of work on his own car, and it came out fantastic. They also have the opportunity to learn how to do things, if they like. Another customer (and now, great friend) was a commercial real estate guy, and he was side by side with me working on restoring/customizing his car. He knew nothing in the beginning, and I taught him mechanics, bodywork, fabrication...Now he comes by almost every weekend and helps out...he was a major player in building the Kopper Kart. It's guys like these who really appreciate what goes into fixing up a car...they were there most of the build. And it's really great that they stay good friends with me, and also defend me on the rare occasion someone who DIDN'T help with the build, bitches about minor things, instead of bringing the car back to me for small adjustments, and such. In the end, I've made a LITTLE bit of money doing this, but made a LOT of good friends, and have had fun building some really cool cars. I'd HATE to do this for a living, though!
"If you're lucky you'll get a newcomer to the game who will do good work for hack prices." Hello,,you pegged me! I've done Paint Jobs that have won trophies at Car Shows. The problem is I can't find anyone who'll pay for the several hundred hour job. So I build the whole car myself and sell them to get paid. I't almost impossible to get paid and get respect at the same time.
Major props to you. If someone hadn't done the same for me I'd still be at the replacing headlights stage.
Our shop was next to a painting contractor's shop. He needed to change the color on a steel exterior entry door for one of his client's homes, and apply a semi-gloss finish to it. It had a few quarter-sized dings, and some scuffs and scratches on it. He sprayed it, and worked it, and sprayed it, and worked it some more. He finally came over to ask advice, and said "how in the hell do you guys get your cars so straight?". He was surprised at the effort it took, compared to painting buildings and houses! I'll never forget that look on his face....
And... for those of you on the customer end of a rebuild of a seriously rough and rusty body: Spend some time with a reccommended professional and evaluate the repair time and cost. Also, if this is a lengthy session offer to pay for the man's time to show and explain the process involved. If the car is extremely far gone, rusty or damaged, weigh the cost of repair with looking for and purchasing a better body. For $10,000.00 of repair work, many cars can be replaced with another body in better shape, then sell the leftovers and recoup some of the difference. This can be a very benificial option for both the car owner and the shop. With the resources available today on the internet, there is no excuse not to learn about special interest auto repair and rebuilding to make yourself an informed purchaser. The opening pictures zman posted on this thread should be a big eye opener for the uninformed. Thanks, zman, for getting this up and thanks to all the good contributors. overspray
i dont think too many of us started off without doing some cheap, or free work. i was working on cars and in body shops before i had a drivers license,(wich i got on my 16th bday) i used to fix dents on neighbors cars for tools, or materials. did motocycle tanks and helmets for 10 bucks(really) you learn pretty quick , the financial side of things, or quit as many do. one day, you notice there are more people at your door than before, if you went with quality rather than price, the cash will follow, if you went on the cheap, free work will line up try not to fall for the "do this for free and i'll fill up your shop with work" line. what ya get is a shop full of guys wanting free work. save the free work for your own stuff. if you hold out, they will pay. if a guy does wind up bringing you alot of biz, then you do him favors, not in advance. i could write a book just on the jobs i did for cheap, or lost money on as a kid........but everybody here already gets the picture , and im sure went through similar training. the best advice i can give ya , is stick to your guns , and dont let expierinced customers railroad ya. if you are doing something for free, you wont have time to do the paying job.. skull
AMEN, brother! No amount of money can replace the friends I've made in this hob...er, uh, profession.
Exactly...so why not just spend the money and paint it, THEN sell it??? Goes along with the ad line "easy resto, just needs paint!"
I don't think it could have been summed up any better. When you go out and buy a car for a project buy the best car or truck you can find but don't go paying for what you don't need or won't use. Pay a premium for the nice rust free body that doesn't show being repainted or having any bodywork done on it. Don't pay a premium for an engine, transmission or wheels and tires that you won't use. We just saw a thread on here a few days ago from someone who drove several hundred miles and hauled home a hulk that I would have been embarrassed to haul to the crusher 20 years ago for the lack of solid metal in it. Great expectations and from the photos most of the car isn't usable in it's present state without massive metal work and panel replacement. It's a good thread and shows that the rates that Zman and others who do world class work charge aren't out of line when you start figuring their whole picture. We who do it at home tend to forget the 5.00 to 25.00 trips to the paint store for sandpaper, filler and other incidentals if we don't go whole hog and buy all the materials for the car at one time. One of my buddies just rebuilt his trailer that he hauls cars and his tractor on. He was saying that it took about 30 cutting wheels, two 11lb spools of .035 wire and a couple of tanks of mig mix along with the actual materials he bought. All of that adds up in a hurry. Plus we may tend to forget that when we go to someone like Zman's shop we will most likely get a real hours work for an hours payed out where some of the cheaper shops may take quite a bit longer to do the same job just due to the skills of the workers and the equipment in the shop. <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
Btt. If and when all of us in this thread, are in the old folks home with bad backs and twisted joints from beating on decades of cool junk, Joe public still wont give a damn...and his wife will be the only one involved to turn a profit.
What most people say is body man when it is actually body mechanic! I don't know a whole lot of mechanics who have the patience to do body and paint work. But ALL the body guys I've ever worked with know a lot about mechanical. It is amazing the average body guy has to know a/c systems, cooling systems, suspension, electrical, and everything else, but we don't have to have the tools or training that the mechanics have. That just another insurance company cop out. Same as I-CAR. Any one ever taken one of those I-CAR classes. It's a joke. Basically if your breathing your going to pass. Hell, I went to one class I was still drunk from the night before when we got there . I slept through the class and was woke up to take the test. I still made an 85 on the test. If it wasn't for insurance companies crying to the government about how they aren't making any money, please don't let body shops charge a reasonable amount so they can make a living, it would probably be a pretty good gig. I'll say it again, I'm just glad I don't work in a collision shop anymore. I much rather work on custom stuff and old cars that are appreciated when finished. Highlander made a good point about saying no. I have a friend that started as a shop boy at a place I was working at a few years back. He wanted to learn, so I taught him how to do body work. Now he's trying to do some side work and I help him out. I let him price the first couple and he ended up working for free. Now he asks me to look at the stuff before he prices anything. He is learning that not all work is profitable, although he did learn the hard way.
Dude, that's so funny and true at the same time. I put myself and two of my guys thru -ICAR 15-20 yrs ago(@ $40/credit hr each).....the welding test consisted of watching a VHS tape on how to assemble a MIG welder, and we looked at some welded pieces of scrap afterward Unreal.... I learned TONS more at every PPG paint class I've taken.
those are good, and i'd kill for the facility. the one here in so-cal is unreal with equipment and materials stocked to the ceiling skull
Could not agree with you more. We just finished up an o/t car ( LS1 powered Datsun 260 Z) that was a prime example of your comments. Even after explaining the above and finding him a lo mile solid unmolested car , he still decided to intiate repairs on the original. He paid the bill. He put well over 100k in this car and could have easily saved 20% by starting with a solid car. (click on the picasa link below my signature for the build pics ) A couple of other points not touched on. Starting a repair on a $150.00 rusted out barn find car is not only exteremely expensive but its also very discouraging for the owner and the repairer as the extent of the cost and effort required to get the project roadworthy becomes apparent. That why many of these cars are still in the garage several years later and announced as " Look what I found! What a deal ! ". Many times these wind up at someones shop with the intent of repair but wind up being just another car stored in the yard. If your customer is in a relationship there is another issue that comes up as far as payment. If he or she spends $xxxx.xx on the car this month , keeping the relationship in balance will usually require an equal amount of money or effort to be spent on jewelry, furniture or other nesting items. I understand you have to start somewhere and this is how many of us did it but working out of the garage or finding someone who does is really not the best option. The legal issues alone can be catostrophic, Example: car starts on fire in home garage . Your home owners insurance will do an inspection before any payments are made . When they find out your conducting business in the property that is forbidden in the policy. They may likely deny the claim. Now how do you pay for the customers car ? No problem he had it insured !!! They will pay him and subrogate the settlement against the repairer . You guys can work out of your garage all what you want ,just be aware of the risks you put yourself , your family and your customer in. Please dont mention the insurance extortionsists. I have an extermely difficult time being PC when talkin about these people. The best thing any shop owner can do is have the owner authorize the repair following your state laws, allow the claims rep to view the first party property to meet the policy conditions, and the throw the insurance SOB out of your shop. You have no legal commitment to discuss or come to an agreed figure with them. By doing so you may actually be conspiring to defraud the consumer of the fair market value of the loss and slit your own throat at the same time. Currently the insurance industry's claims practices are being investigated by more than a dozen state AG s offices . with Conneticutt recommending to the feds to start an investigation of the insurance industry. They were hauled in front of Congress in 1963 for these same actions and signed a " consent decree" , stating they were not going to engage in these unfair business paractices again, needs to be enforced by the feds . The customer should be put back into the process so they can find out how good of a neighbor their insurance carrier really is . We in the business need to get over the idea that these people are your friends and will refer you a steady stream of referals. They will steal you blind if you let them and smile at you as they do. This is becoming very apparent in todays repair shop enviroment. Just for those that are unaware http://www.theccre.com/html/know_the_law.html If your read through this link many things will become apparent about todays insurance system. They need to get back in the business of insurance and out of healthcare, auto repair and home construction. As far as I-CAR goes. You are right . They have failed miserably. I was a district chair in the early 90's and stated to those in charge many times about the need to provide the classroom aspect on video tape , allow the shops to purchase these films, so they could review the info at their leisure and to have bi annual testing for certification. Even in todays "YouTube" world , they still have not grasped this . No wonder they are in the dismal shape they re in but WTF thats what you get when the " Insurance" guys run the show. Its really our ( the shop owners ) fault. Well enough of the rant. Dont mean to offend anyone but its the world as I see it .
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