VIN's, Serial Numbers and Your Hot Rod

As many here may know, I'm an insurance appraiser out of central Florida. A large portion of my business is vintage and classic cars. Now when I mean appraiser, I mean car damage. I'm the guy called in when an accident has happened.

This little story has to do with titling and registering your car. But more so about having the numbers on your car. First let me just define what we're looking at.

VIN = Vehicle Identification Number - Used since 1981, this is the standardized number attached to the dash board of your daily driver. This is generically used to mean all numbers on any car. It is not.

Serial Number - This is the number that effects our cars/trucks. Prior to 1981, the number that identifies the body or car is the serial number. These numbers give various amounts of information fron strictly a year and consecutive built number to body style, assembly plant, engine, etc. As an example, my Studebaker S/N gives the year, six or eight cylinder engine and the consecutive build number.

Each car and manufacturer put serial numbers in various locations. Early Fords stamped their serial numbers on the frame, GM rivited a plate to the floor board on the passenger side in some cars, to the more typical hinge pillar or dash panel.

Many cars that are found may have had the serial number plate removed, the frame replaced or came without a title. Others have a fiberglass car and all the parts are aftermarket pieces.

As an example (and the reason I'm writing this. I got an assignment for a '32 Ford 3-Window coupe that had some front end damage from flying debris on the highway. A few other cars were involved as well. The damage was to the grille shell, insert and hood side panels.

My job as an insurance appraiser, along with writing a damage estimate, is to document the vehicle I'm looking at. This means documenting the serial number, mileage, and license plate number.

This '32 Ford was titled with a 1932 Ford title and used the '32 Ford serial number. Bad? Not at all. The problem was that this car was fiberglass with an aftermarket frame. That in and of itself isn't the problem. The problem was that there was no serial number actually on the vehicle. The owner had attempted to stamp out a metal plate to attach to the vehicle, and failed to make something he was happy with.

The problem is that had the police been called to make a report regarding the debris on the highway, and needed to get vehicle and insurance information, this owner could have had a problem. A cop has every right to impound a car without a serial number or VIN number. This is true of a '92 Oldsmobile Cutlass or a '32 Ford Model 18 three window coupe.

OK, so what to do. There are numerous solutions. The best way is to have the number permanently attached to the car. In the case of our '32 Ford, because the left frame rail was scratched up and will need to be repainted, he is going to stamp the number onto the frame (by someone else ) similar to the way Ford did it originally.

Another way would be having a plate made with the number and attach it to the car in an easily visible location. This could be on the frame rail (on a highboy/lowboy Ford) the firewall, hinge pillar or on top of the dash. I would suggest putting the plate in the same general location the original was. Obviously if the firewall was smoothed and you don't want a serial number plate to sulley your work, find another spot.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have an original title. Even if the state assigns a VIN to the car, I'd still make a plate to replace the states decal, especially if the car has repairs in the same general area as their decal. You may need to have a state cop watch while you attach the new plate. Check with your local DMV.

For you GM guys, the General has used data and trim plates from the mid-'30's until the late '70's. While not necessary to be legal, I would keep this plate as it still documents the vehicle with the body style and model. You can hide it, but I'd still put it on the car and in a place that can be seen if necessary.

This may seem like the reason to remove this tag, but it actually shows why you need to look at your title and other 'documents' to make sure your car/truck will never have legal issues.

I looked at a '70 Nova that had an egg thrown at it. Someone had painted over the serial number on the dash with a heavy coat of semi-gloss black paint to make the number unreadable. The data/trim tag under the hood was still there. The car was titled as a 6 cylinder car (it did have a V8 in it). The data tag said the car was a V8 car. It appears the guy who bought the car didn't have a title and this was his solution. Why is this an issue? If the car was involved in something that would have totaled the car, this could have come back to the insurance company later. The owner was worked with the DMV to get the car titled with the correct numbers (pulled the dash, cleaned off the paint, refinished the way it was supposed to be and it wasn't stolen).

Look, insurance folks and police of various agencies are not stupid. Document your car. The easiest time to do this is while you are building your car. Eliminate the posibility of problems. Keep your car out of the impound yard.

 

Let me add that some states used engine numbers for a title. I found a gentleman who had to register his car via the engine number. He was advised that past a certain age, Florida still used the engine number. This isn't true. But in one case there is a '41 Ford registered with the serial number of the big block Chevy engine that sits under the hood.

I would definitely try to work with your DMV to get the title changed from the engine number to the body number if at all possible. A little research can back up how the car was titled. If you have no success, get a plate with that number and use that. Again, put it in a place that can be seen if needed.

 

How do you verify it on an original model A where the body is actually covering the frame number?

 

The world doesn't work in absolutes. Obviously I'm not going to have the owner tear his car down, pull the body and aprons. But the police aren't limited in telling you what to pull off to the verify a serial number. To answer your question, as Ford used the engine number as a serial number (and stamped on the frame), I would check the listed serial number to the engine number. And yes, engines were swapped on original Model A's.

Again, if the car is original, I would think the owner would have sought out the correct frame for the year of the car and yes, this is not always true). I would also this they would get a correct engine for the year (not always true). And I look for the differences between an early A and a late A. I do note to the insurance company if the serial number is either not legible, either for the reason you mentioned or rust or what ever that reason is.

But I can see if the frame is original or an aftermarket/reproduction. If it's one of these frames on a full fendered '32 Ford, I'd still be asking for the serial number. I may be more anal than others, but I usually check the internet for serial number locations before going to look at the car. If the number is on the bell housing and the access is easy, I've asked an owner to pull the inspection cover on a car in that position.

Look, not many paid attention to the numbers when repairs were being made on original cars, which is why serial numbers have shifted from engines to bodies. Engines were swapped. Frames were swapped. Heck, body shells were swapped. I'm aware of that. But many cops, DMV employees are not car people who understand cars of the past or car repair in general. This is about correcting a potential problem before it becomes a problem.

 

its important enough to take the few bolts out to lift the body enough to see it..or do what ever it takes to get the right numbers..the time to do this is the first day you tear it down..before you spend a dime on building it

on a completed car or a survivor..I would hope that someone would have spent the time to be sure somewhere in its life..but if it were mine, I'd take the time

 

Most of my car books start calling it a "VIN" in 1968, which is when most autos seem to have standardized on the left side cowl under the windshield location for the serial number, and when they seem to take a more standard form; it just happens that in 1981 they were changed again to be longer.

One thing that might be good to mention is if people will have a problem if their tag is installed, say, with ordinary pop rivets, instead of whatever was correct for that particular model year?

 

Another thing I would do if I'm using the original frame is getting a good, clear picture of the numbers off of the frame while it's apart. Keep it in your glove box with your registration. One guy did this and it was fine.

 

Dam..wish i would have thought about this at that time
its all painted up and back to being hard to read

atleast I know they are right, and i have already a state document with them on it, in my name

 

If you ever looked at the serial number on a foreign car before 1981, you'll see they were standardized and my not be 13 digits. This is true on Volkswagens, Jaguars, Rolls-Royces, etc. The government standardized the location on American cars. In 1981, everyone had 17 digit VIN's. Again, everyone looks at these numbers as VIN's when they were serial numbers. I guess if you look at the literal term, they are all Vehicle Identification Numbers, but in the legal sense, not all numbers are created equal.

 

thanks for this from a pro's perspective. I think it was 1970 when the feds mandated the left front corner of the dash for cars.

more info
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=254004

http://www.sizes.com/society/vehicle_identification_numbers.htm

http://www.autofacts.ca/classics/vininfo.htm

DMV links
http://www.antiquecar.com/resources/history.php

FORD info
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_serialnumbers.htm
MOPAR info
http://www.t137.com/registry/help/help.htm
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/...=3#Post5304940

 

Chevrolets bright idea for the 28 models were to stamp the serial numbers on the front seat frame, drivers side. And you can imagine how that has worked out after 81 years. I had mine restamped on the frame in an area that is visible, and had a company called data documents make me a new A piller tag and it looks real clean.

 

Thanks! Guess I need to clean the paint off that VIN tag on my firewall!

 

MO was still using engine numbers in the '50s and I think into the '60s. You would be surpirsed how many mid west cops you have to take by the hand on this issue.

I went to look at a '47 Chebby and there was a State cop looking at a '55 Ford Truck at the same place. he wouldn't buy the Ford because the numbers didn't match. Now bear in mind that this is a state cop.

I went over looked at the title and opend the hood pinted out the number on the 6 cylinder to him and he bought the truck.

Had the same problem with my '49 Harley davidson on numerous occaisions all over the counrty. they always wanted to look at the steering head, the vin/serial number was on the engine case between the cylinder basses. Stayed the same through '60s until they built the nose cone motor.

I haven't met too many officers of the state in the last 40 years that could find a vin tag or number on anything much older than what they were driving.

Not to dispute what you are saying, just my experience.

 

WOW, that's powerfull information! I thank all for the input. I never realized some of that. I have heard of folks having a hastle with their DMV on registration attempts, but never thought of other things. Many thanks for my part. Perley

 

If you can read it, it'll be OK. I looked at a '39 Buick Special sedan delivery at the serial number plate on the firewall was clearly visible. Of course, yours may be different.

 

And this is exactly why the numbers need to be visible and legible. I had one friend who had a car impounded because the cop was a hard ass and there was no visible plate (and yes, I warned him ). I personally had to go look for another that was impounded (the insurance company sent me). The serial number plate was rivited under the floor on the passenger side of a '40's Chevy. And it was there...

 

After discovering your car's ID number it is always a good idea to photograph it or take a pencil rubbing of it, and put them in a safe place.
It might be a simpler and easier process if more of us used a local Title Company to handle the paperwork and registration of our old cars. These folks know the local and State laws, the procedures, and the people who handle the process at the Courthouse. They don't charge an arm and a leg for their services and when you have the paperwork in your you KNOW it is right and legal and will cause you no problems.
I'm not talking about out-of-state old title resellers or out-of-state companies that sell your car back to you with paperwork and plates.
I'm talking about the folks who do the paperwork and title searches and registration for the car dealerships and used car lots and guys like YOU right in your own hometown or county or state.
Sometimes the solution is just around the corner from your own home.

 

This isn't a bad idea, but after going thru the process, make sure you have a plate or stamping on the car for ID purposes.

 

When I registered my '31 Model A RDPU in California back in the early seventies my local DMV (and they are probably all different) insisted that they no longer registered vehicles by the engine number and they sent me to the Highway Patrol to have an identification plate attached to the door jam (as well as a few other "secret" places). It worked out well as I have changed the engine a couple of times.

Charlie Stephens

 

Sorry I wasn't clear about that.
If you buy a car without a title or just a body, frame etc. as a start, get a signed and witnessed Bill of Sale from the seller with a clear description of what you have bought with any numbers included. These simple documents come in handy if youare in a State that issues "builder's titles".

Any car you buy should be inspected for the correct numbers to match any paperwork you get with it. If it doesn't match, the purchase price should be adjusted accordingly.

NEVER drive a car or truck that doesn't have easily shown matching numbers to the paperwork you carry with it as Proof of Insurance, Registration, License Receipt unless you like the sound and result of the words, arrested, impounded, free phone call, bail bondsman, cavity search, felony conviction. And all because you had a taillamp that was out.

 

I see your from Florida and each state is different but here in NM a fiberglass 32 with an aftermaket frame combined with an original 32 title would be a major problem whether the number was stamped or not. What my title people tell me is here in NM is if the police decide the number was stamped by anyone other then the original manufacture (on the title) then the vehical is to be impounded and crushed, period. Hard to make the cops believe Henry came back from the dead and stamped your frame made in 2007. Buying an old title, clear or not, and stamping that number in your frame is a felony here. On an aftermaket built car we have to apply for a DMV assigned vin, they give you a decal to put on and they recommend you stamp that number in your frame. Your title will be a 2009 (or year you title it first) special contruction and NOT 32 Ford. Worst case is an old car with the original VIN removed, they don't want to issue a new Vin for that, they say it must be scrapped.
I guess my point is there are some good points in this thread but everyone really need to research their own state laws to be legal or God forbid, having the cops impound and crush your Hot Rod.

 

Not to get too far off topic from cars - these days Minnesota wants both the frame and engine number when you go in to title a motorcycle.

 

In Colorado, you can pay $25.00 to have a state patrolman come by the house and check the frame number on a Model A (or any other car before the body is installed) and issue a certificate of VIN verification document that you can use later when you're registering your car. After spending a couple of hundred bucks with Broadway Title, I came to the conclusion that the rules (at least here in Colorado) aren't really all the difficult to follow when registering a hot rod. Since I registered a "1999 homebuilt", Colorado has adopted the SEMA kit car registration laws.

 

You bring a whole new meaning to the phrase "numbers matching", as in the numbers on the paper matching those on the vehicle.

In Pennsylvania, the state offers new number plates to "Specially Constructed Vehicles".

My buddy has one on his Street Rod and I have one on a homebuilt utility trailer. THe tag is exactly the same for both.

 

In Florida to register an out of State Title you can 1.) Have the number checked by a Policeman, 2.) Have the number checked by a DMV person, or 3.) Have the number checked by a Notary Public. There is a Section on the back of the necessary DMV Registration Form for whichever entity checks the number, to sign off. This filled out form, together with the appropriate fees, and you get your new Florida title. You can even buy your plates at the same time...if you have insurance. If the State has issued you a Bona Fide Title, I don't care WHAT some cop has to say. Being a retired one, I can tell you that most of them have no clue as to what the hell is going on with their V&T Law. I had to go to Court, with a Lawyer because I got a ticket for no seat belt in my 55 DeSoto. Tried to tell the kid that they weren't required, nor were they even an option in a 55 DeSoto. "Oh YEAH, well it's the law!" Needless to say, he lost in Court...

 

i have a 30 model a on a 32 frame and there are no numbers anywhere..
how do i go about getting a title?

 

State highway patrol came to my house. I had my 1931 Ford unbolted and lifted from frame prior to his arrival. He inspected the vin on top of frame rail [ drivers side] was fully satisfied. He then told me that stamping a tag and attaching to firewall is not illeagal. he simply called it marking your property.

the original banger motor in my ford had been swapped to a later B-banger . the problem was my title didn't match vin # on later motor.
prolly coulda done this without having state boys over for tea... them dudes scare me .

 

"the original banger motor in my ford had been swapped to a later B-banger . the problem was my title didn't match vin # on later motor."

Ford actually sent engines to dealers without any numbers so that the numbers matching the title could be stamped before installing the motor. There's some info on the correct way to stamp the numbers in the Model A Service Bulletins book.

 

interesting information. thanks

keep in mind adding a vin is ok, altering existing vins [ tattoo work] you could cop a case [ felony]

 

I've got a '29 Model AA truck that I bought in 1974. Can't seem to find a title in all my paperwork, but still have the notarized bill of sale with the engine/frame number (it corresponds to the number on the frame, but I no longer have the original engine).

How difficult will this be to title? I've been told by the MSHP driver's license officers that I will need to go to court and get a judge to rule that I am the legal owner. I've got all the receipts on all the work I've done on this. I've also considered writing to the Director of Revenue or Secretary of State and asking for a replacement to the title that I've apparently lost. Is this a good idea?