Hey everybody, I took a break from the engine and have been doing bodywork on my 54 poncho. But now I have most of the welding done I thought I would give the engine another shot. Here is the scenario. 54 poncho, straight 6 replaced wires, cap, rotor, points, condensor rebuilt carb new battery 6V (jumping off of a 12V for that extra little push) I am getting spark My timing is correct and my firing order as well I am getting gas through the carb I sprayed a little eether into the carb and tried it, nothing. I took out #1 plug, sprayed a little in there, nothing. Is there something I am missing? Somebody want to come to canada and give me a hand? I have lots of good Canadian beer... I can't figure this damn thing out. suggestions?
firing order is right... do you have this figured based on the correct rotation of the rotor? (that is to say do the wires go clockwise or counterclockwise) usually a problem like this requires the simplest (sp) solution
first thing to try is a compression check, if it has over 100 psi in most of the holes it should fire...but if not then you need to figure out why. check to see if any animals or bugs built a nest in the intake manifold!
Counterclockwise, I know these are usually very simple fixes, but I can't seem to figure it out. There are no nests in the manifold that I could tell, but I suppose taking off the manifold would ensure that. (haen't done that yet) I don't have a conmpression guage but I know there is compression in all the cylinders as I attempted to start it with the plug out and my finger over the whole(couldn't keep my finger in the plug hole)
how is the compression?are you sure the valves are moving?, how are you checking spark? at the coil or at a sparkplug, you should be able to walk the engine over to the number 1 cylinder and check the spark at the plug, makeing suire the rotor points to the cylinder,, simple things are the hardest to find,do you get anything? original ignito nswitch? or push ****on?
Have you triple checked that the #1 cylinder is getting spark at TDC when it's at the firing position? (instead of between the exhaust and intake strokes) as you crank it over, there should be pressure enough to blow your thumb off the plug hole on the compression stroke, then when the piston finishes moving all the way up is when the points should open and give it a spark on the #1 wire. I'd still recommend a compression check with a gage, it will tell you a lot about what's going on. I only say this because I know a guy who bought a wrecked later model firebird, to put the v8 in an old car, and couldn't get it started for a long time...until I suggested he do a compression test, which he did, and discovered the engine had very little compression. A compression gage is a useful tool to have, even if it turns out this engine you're working on has good compression, at least you'll know for sure.
Is there a way to walk the engine up to TDC and make the plug spark(if there is spark there) without trying to fire the car. The reason I ask is because I don't have anyone to help turn the key if you know what I mean. If the point is open how can I make it spark? I guess that is what I am asking. Is it possible to have to weak of a spark? How would I know if it were?
use a remote starter just a push ****on switch on the solenoid, press the ****on and it bumps the starter,
You can jump the posts on the starter, but if you've not done it before I'd recommend using a starter "jump" ****on. Its a tool you can buy with a pair of wires coming off a hand-held ****on. You make the connections to the solenoid and it's possible to turn the starter over by pushing the ****on. It sure helps when diagnosing underhood. Anyway..once you've got that part figured out... ..pull the number one plug wire and stick an insualted phillips head screwdriver in the boot. Hold the screwdriver close to a grounded opnt (I usually use the exhaust manifold) and turn the engine over. If you hold the screwdriver close to the manifold, it should have a spark jumping from the handle. A nice, thick arc is a good sign. A tiny little arc is weak. Also- here's a point to consider. When roughly estimating where to set the distributor relative to TDC, remember the advance. Set it at about 30-35 degrees (or whatever the factory initial spec is, plus about ten degrees) and it should fire easily. Then, set it to the correct spec. If you've got over 100 psi of compression, a nice fat blue spark, and the carb is squirting nicely when the pedal is moved, it oughta fire. PLEASE stop using ether. There should be no need for it and it works great cleaning all the necessary oil off of your cylinder walls. I'm no fan of it. Engines designed to run on gasoline should start and run fine on gasoline. I've never found aneed for ether unless I had some parts that needed cleaning or some spiders that needed torching. Let us know how it's going. Scotch~!
the comment about ether (good call!) reminded me...is the gasoline fresh? old gas will not start an engine...
with car in neutral put pressure down on fan belt and most times you can turn engine slowly a little at a time-by turning fan blade..... another tip- to test fire at plug/coil condition...... =======take dist cap off======== -turn motor till points are just about ready to open. take coil wire off at dist cap end and leave it in the coil. get a pair of rubber gloves or coated handle pliers etc and hold coil wire-end close to a ground. rotate distributor ROTOR-back and forth causing opening of the point contacts. you will then get a spark snap from the end of coil wire if COIL IS GOOD! HAS THIS MOTOR SAT A WHILE? if so you may have sticky valves[open] or collapsed rings causing nearly NO COMPRESSION.spray some WD40 in each hole and turn over with plugs out. then put plugs in and re try to start.........also check tail pipe for potatoe inserted by friends.......
If the engine has been sitting a very long time you might try a squirt of oil in each cylinder...it has worked for me in the past on a motor that was worn some.
i agree with ether being bad because it washes down cylinder walls, and decreases compression, and increases wear. try WD40 as starting fluid. it lubricates cylinder walls, and will fire well. but if your getting fuel, it shouldnt be needed.
This motor has been sitting for about 30 years. When I got it I put ****** fluid in the plug holes and have let it sit for nearly 6 months like that. my valves are moving but I can't speak for the rings as it is a flat head and I can't see the piston sleeves. BTW coil is good, i do get spark there. I have had a few friends take a quick look at it as well and still nothing. It should start, but it won't fire. after attempted starts, my plugs are not wet if I take them out...strange? I am in the garage right now taking off the manifold to look for blockage because that is all I can think right now. Gas is fresh and new filter and pump and tank.
DrLovely- I wonder if the plugs are new....and new plugs are not always clean plugs. Lets say you cranked it with the aforementioned ****** fluid in the cyls.....sometimes a plug that gets fuel fouled never recuperates.
ya, the plugs are new, but I pulled them out and arched them as well to see if they were fireing, and they are. I was attempting to remove the manifold to search for any blockage in the intake and I can't seem to get one of the nuts off, 3rd from the rear, I can't get a wrench or ratchet in there, ity is the only thing keeping it in there, anyone else had a similar problem with the same engine? ML
I'm guessing you're on the wrong stroke, too.. Move your crank to Top Dead Center, lift the distributor about an inch, turn the engine ONE FULL TURN , and set the distributor back down. Worked for me when I was at a loss. (Thanks, Squirrel, I shoulda re-read that before I posted it !!)
Dr Lovely...if the spark plugs aren't wet, [and you said they weren't] I wouldn't pull the intake just yet. Physically pour some gas down the intake and try again. Close the choke on the carb and crank the motor.... I have one of these motors in my 41 Pontiac. It takes a lotta gas to flood one..
huh? maybe lift the distributor and turn it one half turn. Or lift the distributor and turn the ENGINE one full turn. is that what you meant?
teh distributor is right as far as I know, I copied what was in the manual. #1 and TDC fires in the bottom right corner of the dizzy and goes CC from there. After I have tried to tart it a couple times, i can llok down in the carb and there is liquid in the intake that seems to have pooled there, I am ***uming it is flooding. Still can't get that damn last nut off!
The #1 piston will be at TDC when cylinder #1 is supposed to fire, but it will also be at TDC when cylinder #6 is supposed to fire. This is because the crankshaft turns twice for each turn of the camshaft (and distributor). You need to make sure that the distributor is pointing at #1 when cylinder #1 is actually in the firing position. If you have the distributor in the wrong place by half a turn, then it will be trying to fire #1 when #6 is supposed to be firing. But if no one ever removed the distributor from the engine, then this is not likely to be a problem. I'd be more concerned about finding out if you actually have compression, especially after hearing about how long the engine has been sitting. Get a compression gage and test the compression....please?
May be a dumb question- but since its sat for thirty years is it beyond reason that bad TIMING GEARS may be the reason it was parked?
Nope, it was parked because the owner died. I don't think anyone has removed the Dizzy, but there is always a possibility.
Have you checked point gap and dwell? Sounds like it has a piddly little spark, which is a recipe for an engine not running even if it has "ignition". Give us some numbers on cylinder compression. Run down to VatoZone for a cyl pressure gauge, they probably have one in their loaner tool selection. This is important. An engine needs spark, fuel, and compression to run (***uming all mechanicals are in working order and phased properly).
SO I got a compression tester and these are the results. #1=10lbs 2=23lbs 3=10lbs 4=8lbs 5=10lbs 6-10lbs I haven't checked my manual yet, but I am ***uming I don't need to as these are WAY TOO LOW. Does this mean my rintgs are shot(more than likely)? What do I do now? I am not the most mechanically inclined, but I don't mind getting dirty to try and learn. thanks mark
yeah, that's wayyyyy too low. and explains why it won't start. bummer. If you want to learn how to overhaul an engine, now is the time to start! but maybe start a new post for your new set of questions...
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