I was able to get some time to tear into my winter project, a '37 Buick Special. I got all of the front sheet metal off, the motor and ****** yanked and the firewall cleared off. I some rust problems, all in the area of the cross member under the radiator. This was not a prestine car when I got it but it was only $550. The body is decent but not great. When I first started working on it after I got it I raised the front end up with my floor jack and it went through the bottom of the front cross member. Today after pulling everything aparts in the front I found the extent of the rust damage. I wanted to do a stock restoration, not a 100 point show winning restoration, just something that would be fun to drive around in. Now that I found all of this damage I want to explore my options. I'm sure I can repair the damage but it's going to take time. Then it's going to cost a small fortune to replace the front end components, to do it right everything has to be replaced. Also, the engine mounts are going to cost a few bucks. The question I have for the guys with this vintage Buick, Olds and Pontiac, since I think I read they all have the same suspensions, is what have you done? What would you do? If a newer front frame clip what works? Also, if you go with a newer clip how do you go about mounting the stock sheet metal?
Well, it seems you have a couple of options here. Since a lot of street rodders are replacing stock front suspensions with either Fatman (or brand X) frame stubs or using adapted clips, (Camaro, Nova etc.), there is a fair chance you can pickup for cheap a stock clip and graft it to your frame......all stock, just rebuild the various pins, bushings tie rod ends etc. You could also do as you mentioned, and the aforementioned rodders are doing, and adapt an existing clip to your frame. As for attaching the original sheetmetal, your need to replicate the mounting point of the radiator core support and frame horns for bumper mounting. There are numerous choices from which to source such a clip. However, the 'front steer' types are not best for your application. The short overhang of your front fenders makes it a very tight, or requires some modification, around the front fender/steering box intersection. The 'rear steer' type, earlier Camaro/Nova eliminate this problem. Also Dodge Dakota pickups use a front steer Rack and Pinion unit that also avoids the clearance problems. And lastly, The Fatman Fab frame clip is a simplified, though a bit more costly, solution to your problem. The stub will mate with your frame somewhere between the firewall and upper "A" arm area. It will already have the core support and frame horns placed correctly to just bolt on your original parts. It would be the easiest to install, other than a '37-'38 clip, for a less experienced workman. It has a variety of brake options and uses R & P steering
Hi bobj! About the only thing I know about those suspensions, is that 1937 was the first year for the independant set-up...at least for Buick. I sense that your main concern is getting the front sheet-metal positioned correctly after you do any major changes...correct? Here's a technique that I read about somewhere in years past, for doing exactly that. First, mount a small plate to each particular location where the front panels are originally secured to the frame. Now, if this was a '37 Chevy, we'd only be talkin' about two holes at the center of the front cross-member, 'cause that's where the radiator-support is bolted to the frame, and on the Chevy, the radiator-support carries the whole freakin' front end. But as I understand it, Buicks and their brethren of that era had additional holes for that purpose. You'll have to determine where they are. Once you've got a plate bolted to any and all locations where the radiator-support and related brackets are mounted that support the fenders and such, find some likely holes on the firewall that you can bolt some more plates to, and do that. You shouldn't need more than approximately 4 plates on the firewall, preferably at locations outboard...that is, at the outer areas of the firewall. Once you have all your plates mounted, cut some small-diameter rod to length, and weld them from the plates on the firewall to the plates on the frame. Using some triangulation, you shouldn't need to use too heavy of rod. I imagine that 3/8" diameter will be strong enough. In doing this, you've made a fixture that will hold its shape and dimensions well enough to enable you to find those mounting locations on the frame when you need to, yet not be so heavy, that it's hard for you to lift. The mating face of the "frame plates" will help you find the surface location of your new cross-member, and the holes you mounted them with will give you the exact location of the original holes. This "locating-fixture" can be removed, and place somewhere safe to keep it from getting damaged and bent out of shape, and then remounted to the firewall when needed, when you're positioning and drilling your new cross-member. I hope I've explained this process clearly enough. Good luck. - Rick
Well, since this is a hot rod forum, I say stub it and move on... It will drive better, be lower, and be much less frustrating than trying to bring it back to original.
I knew that you'd get some other pertinent info provided to you before I got done typing, and I'm glad that Hnstray did just that. He's right. The most straightforward solution would be to replace your rusted crossmember with a good one from a similar car. In this way, you could avoid having to make the fixture that I suggested. Any other solutions though, would benefit from the positioning fixture. - Rick
I have to disagree to a point, with Ice Breaker. A stub is not the end-all solution. Buick's independent suspensions of that era are really quite decent systems. And since they use coil springs, they can be lowered some if you wish, by using a shorter spring. If you are working within a limited budget, and not especially concerned with cornering or braking like a sports car, I would stick with your original equipment. You'll spend much less rebuilding the original components, and it'll be simpler, than if you stub it and have to buy additional A arms, springs, backing plates, brake drums, steering gear, etc. It all depends on how you want to use the car, and I think you said that it's to be basic fun transportaion. Again, good luck. - Rick
You need to tally up the cost for all of your options first. That Fatman set up is prolly pretty expensive.........here is a list of prices for just suspension, let alone a new cross member: http://www.oldbuickparts.com/nos/37parts.htm I'd just like to say, you can wiki ANYTHING?!? http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/1937-1957_Buick_Oldsmobile_Pontiac_suspension_upgrade
Thanks everyone. Brandy, that is an awesome article. I would never have even thought of trying such a narrow subject on Wiki. I've copied the whole article and will be referring to it when I start the rebuild. It has given me real guidance on the way to go. I really like the disc brake upgrade. I really would like to keep the car stock so I think I'll try to patch the frame together and go that route. I looks like the most economical (read cheapest) way to go.
Buick suspensions and frames are pretty much the same from 39 to the 50,s. I made some measurements from a 53 Buick Special frame and its basically the same as my 39 bu coupe, and the complete suspension/steering is the same also. Your frame looks similar but the steering ***embly is way different. If you can find a 37 or 38 buick for parts you are in luck. However a later Buick will be easier to find, get some measurements you may be able to weld it on. However if your not restoring it i would just get a modern front stub and weld it on, and you will get better suspension an brakes all in one.
I don't know what your skill level is or what you have done like this before. You must know that the front crossmember has to be entirely replaced either all at once or welded up with pieces "one piece at a time." Maintaining anchor points is going to be a real bear using the one section at a time method. The frame has some nice straight sections there to graft on a complete front section of either later model or stock frame, neither of which should be too costly. Since cost appears a factor, my choice would probably be a stock frame section even though it means maintaining those shock/a-frame leaky things up top. The old time fix for those was to add a tube shock to the front end between the frame and lower control arm.
please NO.... The front steer is gonna cause problems right off. And is not where I would go with this car. hnstray gave some good advice. I'm thinking if stock is what you want you should be able to find at least the front clip to replace your bad stuff. Go ahead and check the rest of the frame before you go any further. That way you know wether you need a whole frame or can do with just the front clip. You could put out some feelers in places like the yahoo Buick group.
What's up with this S-10 frame mania???? Damn near any and every post about frame/suspension issues has one or more "use an S-10 frame" recommendation. The S-10 track is considerably narrower than most of the cars people are working on. I know, I know, you're going to say, "use some wheels with more offset to get the track right" Sorry, that just shows how little the poster knows about front end geometry and/or cares about proper steering and handling qualities that geometry provides. The S-10 front suspension components are essentially GM A & G series components attached to a narrower crossmember. No magic there, just decent stuff that works, but if you need a wider front end, why not use the A/G frame clips to begin with. The rear of an S-10 frame is designed to go under a flat bed surface, not a more contoured floor/trunk area of the typical car. Again, the A & G vehicles have triangulated 4 link rear suspensions, coil springs, and contours suitable for a p***enger car application. The side rails are straight, like an S-10's, so they can be lengthened or shortened just as easily. The point of this rant is not to promote A & G GM ch***is, so much as to debunk the lemming like following the S-10 ch***is seems to have caused a**** a certain set. It's fine where it fits best, but that is NOT every frame job that comes along! Ray
Rickybob's suggestion will work, but it is a lot more work than really is necessary. An alternate method of locating the core support and bumper mounting points is as follows. Put the car on jack stands, elevated at a good working height, and with the frame leveled side to side and front to rear, shimming with thin metal plates as necessary to achieve this. Plan NOT to move it at all throughout the transplant. Using a plumb bob and permanent markers, mark on the floor the locations of the points needing duplication, and record their heights from the floor to center of the holes. Record this on paper too, for backup. You have now located in three dimensions all the critical positions. This would apply to a stock '37/'38 replacement clip, or rebuilding your existing one for that matter, as well as any other unit you may choose.
"The question I have for the guys with this vintage Buick, Olds and Pontiac, since I think I read they all have the same suspensions, is what have you done? What would you do? If a newer front frame clip what works? Also, if you go with a newer clip how do you go about mounting the stock sheet metal? " When I started my 37 Pontiac I was going keep the stock suspension stuff and just trim the coils to lower it a bit. Things change, after pricing all the components to completely rebuild the frontend and considering how I wanted to use my car, I went with a fatman stage III and a stub. Nothing wrong with the factory stuff. I want to put a lot of miles on my car and the fatman stuff is really nice. Replacement parts for the fatman stuff are easy to get if you need it. No sheet metal issues for me, everything went back as it should. Just my opinion. Colt.
Too bad you're so far away, I'm getting ready to cut the front of my '36 Olds frame. It looks new! Completely cleaned and painted with some new brakes and upper shocks/control arms.
I would like to check out a '58 or newer suspension just to see if it would match up to the '37's frame and use it as the stub section. I really like the body style of the '37, kind of looks like a gangster car and to me it has a lot of cl***. I like the idea of using the stock frame, especially after reading the Wiki article with all of the upgrade suggestions. I've never done a frame stub before but have the room and equipment to do it. I'll have to search the HAMB for advice on doing it. I want a safe ride and won't cobble something together. If you have any advice on how to do a safe, reliable stub I'm all ear (or in the case of the net, all eyes) I crawled under the car when I first got it to access the frame, it if was junk the car was going to be parted out. The frame looks pretty solid other than the front cross member. I'll know more once I have the body off and can really see the frame from all angles. I'll take a look at the Yahoo group. This is the kind of information I am looking for to decide on my options. I real a lot about the Mustang II and Camero but I just can't see how they would work on such a heavy car. All good points. Your method seems a little easier to understand and the added point that this method is needed for a stock stub swap is a very good point. I figured I'd have to do something like this because I have casually read articles in the past on stubbing procedures. Always the way it is, good parts too far away. All of you have really offered a lot good information and suggestions. I've never really been into modifying cars, I do all stock, and have found a huge amount of information of the HAMB that is very pertinent to the stock restoration hobby. I just recently started posting on the board but lurked on and off for a couple of years. Even though mine are stock I've booked marked many technical posts that relate to problems I have run into doing stock restorations. There are some really talented and knowledgeable people on this board.
I did something similar to the wiki article on my 55 Pontiac, and have an extra set up with the 58 Pontiac control arms and disc brake kit was going to put on my 41 I won't be using. If your interested in it let me know. This is the best up grade IMO, but you would need to find a replacement frame or front clip. I wouldn't try to fix what you had. I did mine in a weekend, no worrys about having to fab up mounts for sheetmetal or radiator. I had a front steer camaro frame here I got for free and didn't use it, it was too wide and the gearbox was at the radiator. I have manual steering and just reused the column gearbox ***embly . Power steering would involve quite a bit more work for the stock frame. Along with the wiki suspension article was a cavilier rack install on the same car, but I would stick with a 605 ps box if I was doing it. One other thing converting over by the article is when the the upper mount is made you gain a few things, I included anti-dive into the upper arm, better adjustment w/shims and higher caster for better handling was figured in.
I am on the trail of a front clip a guy cut off a '39 Special to make it into a 4X4 a while back. He's close by and I'm hoping he still has it. Cheiftan I sent you a PM.
Bob, I was out where I have my 53 stub stashed and looking at it, and seeing your pic I think you could use any newer frame stub from a Buick at least up to 53, and maybe to 56. You could have my stub free but shipping it wouldnt be worth it. Any 38 Buick coupe thats got a good 'complete' saveable body is worth keeping. Even if you had to replace the whole frame which isnt a bad idea, and maybe possible with out too much work. There are lots more 50,s Buicks parts available than 38,s. Keep an open mind and check out some old Buicks.
Now see, this is where a really great HAMB haul would come in handy.........ESPECIALLY since I have a roadster sitting in Wisconsin that I need to fetch BADLY, and there's a perfectly good 53 front end sitting here in California. =O)
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