Projects Project: 331 Hemi in 1950 Hudson Coupe

HAHA! No no! I remember WELL! Mentioned it above as there being some 1/4" or so differences. We never really concluded that the 51-54 cranks wouldn't actually work as long as the correct starter and flywheel combo were used. Definitely risky though, I agree. Didn't think we had TOTALLY ruled it out with the right combo of parts though.

For the automat transmission kits available (if that's what was used) a 146T arrangement that's used with the 51-54 cranks would be out of the question though since the kits are setup for a 172T flywheel and later Mopar LA style starter.

When in doubt, get the later 54 and up crank as mentioned. I agree.

This is the thing when you get into piecing together Chryslers (and any other motors). Parts interchangability in the long run. Frustrating.

 

73RR, are you still suggesting using a 392 crank? Or just use stock 331 (or stock 354?) crank and rods and buy 10:1 forged pistons? I just want to be clear in my head that I am understanding exactly what you're suggesting. I have no crank, so I'm going to have to try and find one, whatever that one is, I just saw a 392 (maybe it was eBay) that they were asking $900 for!

I like the simplicity of using stock crank and rods, but on this motor, I don't want a stock 8.5:1 motor, I want more that I can reasonably get without getting too modified and high dollared.

So than, I should be able to get a nice street (play at the track for fun) runner (baring the top end, which I will be asking about when this is figured out) with a stock 331 or 354 crank and rods, and 10:1 forged pistons. Did I get that correct?

 

I believe he was merely suggesting that if you would like "bragging rights" that you have a stroked early Hemi then go the 392 crank route and you would have a few extra cubes in your motor however the cost to do such a modification would be substantially more, as you're finding out.

Yes! You can get the C/R that you want by simply using a low-deck crank and stock rods with the forged pistons of choice. Compression ratios are available up to 12:1 (just for the sake of mentioning).

As an example, in my '53 331 I'm running a standard low-deck rotating ***embly with 10.5:1 Ross forged pistons and a mild street cam and stock hydraulic lifters. No real guesses on HP, but it's going to be good enough for the street and my Model A.

 

Gary... Just thought of something... Didn't we figure out that 331 p***enger car cranks had the same casting numbers from 51 to 55??? I know my 53 crank has the same cast number as the crank I have that came out of a '55 331. Casting number: 1323335. Leo's book will probably tell what years this casting number was used.

Trying to recall now. Gonna' have to go back and look.

 

I guess I could have just clarified this with a picture.

 

Geez, guys, my DeSoto only has 7.5:1 CR...

 

Yeah but you've got one of those fancy Swiss Cake roll lookin' things on top of your engine.

 

Okay, Okay!! Got the picture! LOL I think that's the direction I may go in and then save up money for another hemi that gets blown!

 

Leo's book lists 7 casting #s & 11 part #s between the 301/331/354 engines.

 

Hollander's list 51-53 - early 54 V8 as Part No. 1323335
w/ forging nos.: 1323335,1523335,1619647, 1635690

late 54 and 55 as Part No. 1613125 w/ forging nos.: 1409421, 1323335, 1523335, 1619647, 1635690 (could it be that forging no. 1409421, which does not appear in 1954, represents the crankshafts used on the new C300?)

Further, Hollander states that late 54 and 55 V8 crankshafts all interchange though auto ****** crankshafts must be machined to fit the pilot shaft bearing if being used for a manual ******.

Hollander does not show a different crankshaft being used for the C300's, though apparently that changes in 1956.

 

There ya' go then! Just stick with the later 331 stuff and you should be A-O-K!

 

Yes, it is/was the early forging number that is 0.200" short on the back end. Those need to stay with the extended blocks

Jay, please go back and read through Scooters major crankshaft headache thread so you do not end up in a similar situation.
And NO, I was not pushing a stroker...just offering the idea since you do not have a crank to start with, so if you were to find a clunker cheap enough then some additional work might make sense to you.
As much trouble as some of us have on certain days getting ideas across, how in hell does anything get communicated with that texting ****????

A stock crank with stock rods and 10:1 pistons will work minor miracles. If the stock bothers you then look at Eagle or ****.

Side note ...
For those folks in the market, we are inking a new deal with a new piston mfgr for Hemi pistons and the pricing appears to be extremely compe***ive. Details coming soon, send a PM if you need specifics.


Gary

 

OOOOH! Now you're just showin' us what an old dog you are! HAHA!

Keep us posted on those pistons Gary!

Jay, here's the thread on the crankshaft headaches I have. I'm running a later truck crank (which is similar to a 354 crank) in my 331 and found out the hard way it was LONGER than the earlier cranks, despite what most of us thought. Had to make some modifications to even get the starter to engage. A mistake I'll never make again...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=403684&highlight=hemi+crankshaft

 

There's a guy selling 331 rods on eBay right now for $24.95 + $8.50 each. Says they're checked for cracks and wear and also shot peened. Is this what they go for? Just seems high to me, but I'm new to Hemi's.

Any comments?

 

I went out to look at the part number on the oil pump I bought and it is a rebuilt original 55-56 chrysler oil pump, part no. 1323361. That's good to know.

 

did you give any consideration to using a Dakota front frame swap?? Pretty robust R and P and discs all included. Might be worth a look.

 

Scooter, I read your thread and see the problem. Those truck crankshafts '56 331 and '57 354 won't fit the early 331 blocks or the '55 331, only the '56 300B (354) w/ auto ******, at least that's what my Hollander Interchange Book says. It says you're stuck using a '51-early '54 331 crank only. Late '54 and '55 331's can only use 331 cranks (late '54-'55). So according to Hollander, we can't use a 354 crank. Maybe you guys know a way with some machining which must be the only way you can do it.

 

A friend of mine is building a '56 Dodge suburban wagon and bought a '98 Dakota for parts but said the '80's Oldsmobile front clip went in at almost perfect width and has disc brakes. He used the Dakota for the engine, ******, seats, console, etc., but the rear end is too wide so is getting a 9" cut to same width as original. The Olds clip looks good in it, but he's a great fab guy.

 

Yeah, that seems a little on the high side to me. Not terrible, but a little high. Get used to the higher prices. Anything with H-E-M-I in the description will just be more.

Keep an eye on the Hot Heads cl***ifieds. They come up there from time to time. It's rare that you'll see those rods in unusable condition and you would STILL want to have them checked out by your machinist anyway. From my experience you never want to take someones word that they have been "checked out". I learned that the HARD WAY and it's not fun!! Get some bone stock rods and drop them off at your trust-worthy machinist to be checked and matched to your crank and pistons.

Put want ads up here and on the Hot Heads site. You will surely get some response. These rods are VERY common!

 

Yeah Scooter, I expect Hemi stuff to be expensive, but was just trying to get a range I should be looking at. 73RR is going to get back to me on their pistons when available and has been a good resource for me as well as you and the others here. I'm thankful you still post on this thread and I hope it will continue for quite awhile while I look at this build. I'm very excited and though cash won't really be here for a month or so, I figure I can get a lot of planning done in the meantime.

 

Scooter, (and anyone else) have you seen the guy who sells on eBay reconditioned blowers (w/o drives or w/ for xtra dough) for around $600-$1,200? I wonder if anyone's bought from him or taked to him and can give some feedback. It seems prety low prices from what else I've seen out on the net.

 

The drives and ancillarys are where the $$$ start to add up, but I bought mine in pieces/parts and DID save a BUNDLE...

 

Gary is the man! Keep in touch with him and you can't go wrong!!

Glad to help!!

Lots of good deals out there on rods! Just keep searchin' around! I would rather see you pay $150 for a complete set, but even that could be on the higher end. Gary might know a little better on that price range...

Lots of great knowledge here! Just keep asking and people will keep posting.

Not sure on the blower stuff. 345 know a lot about that stuff though. BIG money in those setups for sure!!

 

On some parts the Hollander interchange is very very specific about parts being exact replicas or else it won't be listed as an interchange. This includes some obscure details such as whether or not it has a pilot bearing and what size of pilot bearing...(If you are building a manual trans car and need a pilot then you make one!)
For most, if not all, of the Hemi engines used in hot rod applications, everything will interchange except for the 'short' 331 crank (1323335).

If the journals are the same dia, if the journal centres are the same, if the flange is the same, if the flange extends the same amount, if the snout is the same.....if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....




.

 

....It's a parrot immitating a duck?

 

It is a fun project though! And since I must get off my feet at least half the day, I have plenty of time.

At least now I know the oil pump is original, I have the rods and piston nailed down (10.1:1 forged pistons on stock rods), the crank...sort of...lol.

Moving on to the valve train. My 331 heads look to be rebuilt, but I'll have them taken to check when the block and mains go in. There is a guy in San Diego that reground the cam for my son's '56 Dodge 315 Poly 8:1 stock pistons (30 over) and crank, 4bbl Edelbrock. Here's that set-up:

intake .450 valve lift, 256 duration .300 camlift, duration @ .050= 206
exhaust .435 valve lift, 262 duration .290 camlift, duration @ .050= 210

He says this should give me a bit of nice lope I wanted and bit of performance in the 1500-4500rpm range. He is highly recommended a**** the '55-'56 Forward Look guys. I'm going to call him about this early hemi set-up w/ the dual quads and see what he thinks.

Any thoughts on cam grind out there? I honestly do not know how you calculate the lift and duration guys!

 

Your right guys, Hollander is like that and they do say you have to machine for the pilot bearing if using an auto ****** crank on a manual ****** car, but that is it. But I have found it useful for a few things on our '56 Dodge and worth the few bucks I paid for them. I do still need to buy that hemi build book that I think is mentioned in the hemi tech section.

But gonna get some cash together after buying christmas presents this year!

 

The Tex smith book is good despite a few errors. Factory shop manual can't hurt either. there's a long tail short block build on webrodder that might be of interest.

 

Agreed! MOSTLY correct and Gary even has a little blurb in there, as well.

 

Jay, I think I saw you ask somewhere about oil pumps... It sounds like you have a stock one lined up. I think that is a good move. They do the job the way they are supposed to and extra flow is really of no benefit with what you're building and extra flow usually requires you pay some attention to return paths. Also, you don't need an adapter. It bolts right on, delivers what you need, and there are rebuild kits available from EGGE. The ideal choice, in my opinion.