I'll second Nash on drum brakes. I have 3 vehicles with 4 wheel drums, none with power. With proper bore sizing, power is not needed. There is plenty of material (much more than disk brakes) contact between the shoes and drums. Any of them can lock all 4 wheels without excessive effort. As stated, where you run into trouble with drums is heavy repeated use. Riding the brakes down a long grade will get them hot, then chances of a panic stop are greatly reduced. Driving through creeks will get them wet and less effective also, but not likely in a Caddy. Devin
http://www.praisedynobrake.com/bib.htm I am a fan of this package. I have it on my 56 210 with a six and a glide. My car is not as heavy as yours but with this setup at all four wheels, she stops much better than the OEM type replacement stuff that was freshly installed right before I got her. My description of their performance is this. The car went from scary to drive in Houston traffic to no fear at all. It stops straight without lockup quickly. Not trying to talk you out of disc conversion but this is worth a look if your budget is limited and you need to fix other things besides brake to make your cad safe to drive. The do not list a kit for your application but give them a call and see if anything they stock is compatible with yours. Cannot say enough good things about their product, price and service.
I remember the first time I saw one of those booster set-ups and scratched my head as well. The shop that built my last Mustang had a 55 or 56 Limo in it at the same time that they were doing a LS1 conversion on . Supposedly a real rare car but it was a neat thing to look at it and the way the booster was done originally.
Thanks Zeke, If they are in fact a pick up truck sized brake they might just have something!! Its nice to have so many options!! Bill
Yep I think I saw that build. It is a weird set up for sure, but it seems to work! I'm not sure how well you can modulate it, I guess it uses fluid from the M/C instead of a push rod from the pedal. Bill
Lets hope so, unless you have the dosh for discs. On the freeway she stops straight in a panic situation.
There's a couple of pics of it still on his site but not a real good one showing the booster. Here's a link to it though. http://www.ch***ispro.com/56cadillac.html
Scarebird says their kits cost about $400 to get fully installed. That includes buying the caliper bracket and any other parts needed for the swap. Of course that doesn't include a dual M/C set up. It seems a dual system should be a minimum upgrade! Bill
That's the car, thanks!! Sure looks sweet low and black!! Here is a link to the build: http://thefabforums.com/main/index.php?topic=8.0 That might be your Mustang in the background?? Bill
Remote boosters are real common, I dunno why more on here aren't familiar with them. I've seen them (and used them) on everything from a Mark IX Jag to an 80's S1700 IH (#32,000 truck). But you have to use a single master to feed the booster. And it really becomes two systems - the line from master to booster, then booster to wheels. Fluid is not shared, though the reservoir may feed both systems. If you do go to GM rear discs, you absolutely must rig a parking brake that both works and that you use regularly. GM wisely decided that they would incorporate the 'self' adjusters with the parking brake. You'll need to use the P brake about once a week or so, to keep the rears in adjustment. No real issue that, except that GM also didn't tell many folk this, so a lot of 70's Eldos and 80's up Cadillacs have rapidly wearing front pads. It IS in the owner's manual, so I'm sure that the owner's knew . Oh, yeah, a LOT of folk will tell you that I'm full of ****. Let me know how that works... Still want to build one like yours - with my ideas of course Cosmo
I had a couple of them up there at the time but they were both 65/66 fastbacks. Still have a 66 Fastback up there and my Dad's 56 Chevy.
Don't sound full of ****...... I have been studying the booster set up in the Cad manual alot. It looks like a cool set up. I'm sure mine would need a full rebuild and I think the parts would be kinda hard to find. I'm thinking for simplicities sake I should upgrade to disks on the front and leave drums on the rear, and add a dual MC and booster. After going to all the work that this car will take, I don't want to stuff the dagmars into the *** of some new car!! What ideas did you have for yours? Bill
Ideas?? Build it up to look near stock, but underneath it all, modern enough to take the daily grind, though I'd likely use more for long trips. Loved my '70 DeVille ('vert) for long trips. It'd cruise effortlessly at 85. And it wanted to cruise at 85, as drivers who'd had no Cad exp. and didn't want to drive at that speed, would find themselves at 85 mph. And they said it felt like 55. THAT'S the quality of build I'd want - a car that felt rock-solid at supralegal speeds. What's it all mean, detail-wise?? More sound deadening. Electric windows (if hydraulic, now). A/C, but an attempt at Climate Control, as that was the ****, turn a dial and forget it for the rest of the drive - always comfy. (Don't give me ****, it IS a Cadillac!). Re-covered stock seats, as the quality has gone down since about '66. Springs are seats, NOT foam!! Try riding in the back of a Fleetwood, and NOT falling asleep. They are that comfy! Twilight Sentinel, as that has proven itself and I never had one fail, ever. Real Cadillac parts, but not stuff after '70, or so. You said drums for the rear. You may find it interesting that Commercial ch***is rear axles are far heavier duty than the lesser ch***is: 2 bearings per side, wider shoes, and just a heavier build, similar to 3/4 ton truck. Just sayin'. Oh, and Commercial wheels are heavier gauge and rivetted, not welded. Usually grey in color. They DO make a difference on a regular car. Feels a bit more planted. A little shorter ratio, though, more in the 3:30-1 range. Ah, yes, dreams, but now I am employed... Cosmo
Sounds like a cool ride Cosmo!! I had kicked around the idea of putting newer Cad seats in it, but these things are like a big sofa!! I'm just going to re-cover the stock ones. I'll look around for some commercial stuff, that's a good tip right there!! Thanks!! Bill
I am using the stock 12" drums on my 55 Lincoln with an updated power dual master cylinder. I have no fear of driving in I-30 traffic at 70 mph AT ALL. Yea, I am sure that disk brakes would look more impressive if their performance would be plotted out on a graph side by side compared to my drums, but as a practical matter stopped is stopped. Fact is, I think they stop damn good every time. Good enough that I think changing to disk would be a waste of time and effort. But, that old single M/C HAD to go...
I was into Fieros for a few years (they were 85-88). they have 4 wheel power disk brakes that are flat out dangerous IMHO. I also own a couple late model (66) Corvairs that have non power ***ist 4 wheel drums and they stop as well as many new cars do today. what I'm saying is just because it's a drum or disk doesn't tell the whole story. there are good and bad of both variety, and that has to be concidered in the decision making process. OC
That's interesting guys. I have never driven a 4 wheel drum car, so I can't speak from experience. Maybe I should go ahead with the dual M/C and rebuild what I have and see how it works. As was said earlier, the Cad was the top end of engineering for the day. We don't have mountains here and I don't drive though very many creeks, so the brake fade shouldn't be an issue. I have heard that the biggest improvement is radial tires on these older cars. Bill
Remote vacuum booster is exactly what it is. Commonly referred to as a Hydroboost or hydraboost "back in the day" (too many years have elapsed and I haven't got any of the old books around me). Not to be confused with the hydraulic system run off the power steering pump used on Mustangs and pickup trucks the last fifteen to twenty or so years, probably from a manufacturer's brand name. Quite common on large trucks in the days before the proliferation of "semis" perfected air brakes. It is simply a large diaphragm booster that could be mounted on the ch***is in a place where there was more room to accommodate it than a crowded engine compartment. This was accomplished by using hydraulic line pressure from the master cylinder to actuate it, rather than the direct mechanical pressure developed by the brake pedal with your foot on it before the master cylinder. The use of it would provide good pedal pressure and acceptable pedal travel even with disc brakes and a large bore master cylinder. Of course, to get the redundancy of a split braking system would require two.
My opinion,it's not about the stopping power of drum brakes,it how they feel when used near the limit.Bendix drum brakes tend to lock up suddenly when you get on the edge of traction.A disc brake by comparison is far easier to control at the same limit of traction.Once the tires start skidding ,control is lost. There's nothing wrong with a good drum brakes system,disc are just better.
I guess thats the "Self energizing" part of the design. I would imagine the power boost would lessen the ability to modulate also. Bill
The Jalopy Journal
