I've been doing a lot of research on rust encapsulators in the last week, that's what products like POR-15, Rust Bullet, Zero Rust and Rust Doctor are. I searched the HAMB and found many threads about them. One post mentioned that POR-15 started as marine floor paint. The person mentioned you can buy the marine floor paint for about 1/2 the cost of the paints marketed to the old car hobby. I called a few industrial paint distributors to see if they carried specific marine floor paint. I described what I was looking for to one paint dealer and he said it sounded like I was looking for epoxy mastic. I searched the internet for "epoxy mastic" and found numerous posts and a few places that sold the product. The products made by PPG and Rustoleum could be bought at local distributors including my local hardware store. Krylon makes a similar product but what I have been able to find out you have to buy it in 4 gallon quantity. When you go to the PPG and Rustoleum web sites their descriptions of their products are exactly like the above mentioned rust encapsulators descriptions of their products. They are both made to penetrate and seal blasted or solid rusty metal. They need a surface that they can grab on to. They can are applied directly over solid rusty metal. They both can be used as a primer or as single type coating. Like all the rust encapsulator products their finishes turn chalky if left exposed to UV rays. One major drawback to the POR-15 product is it's not easy to paint over. You have to buy more of their products to prepare it for primer and they suggest you use their primer, all of which are expensive. Most of the other rust encapsulators can be used as a primer and painted right over. The one major difference between the PPG and Rustoleum products and the products marketed to the old car hobby is the PPG and Rustoleum products are two part systems, the other are one part products. This I see as an advantage because as soon as you open the POR-15, and the other products, and the product comes in contact with oxygen it starts to harden. You can retard the hardening of the product by pushing plastic food wrap into the can to displace the oxygen, sealing the can and placing into a refrigerator but it will only slow the hardening, not stop it. Also, if you do put it into a refrigerator make sure there isnt any food in it because the fumes from the encapsulator will seep into the food, I know from experience. The two part epoxy system doesnt harden until the two parts are mixed together. Mix what you need. The major benefit of the two part system is the cost. All of the two part systems I found are for the industrial market and come only in two gallon packages, on gallon paint, one gallon activator. The cost of the PPG and Rustoleum products is around $125 but you get two gallons, the cost for POR-15 and the others are around $40-45 a quart and around $150 for a gallon. Because the car products start to harden as soon as you open them Ive bought it only by the quart so if I didnt use all of it I only lost a small quantity. I havent bought the two part epoxy product yet but for my current project I am going to buy the two gallons for $125 and use it on my frame and underside of my car along with the inside floor boards, fender undersides and trunk. If I have any left over Ill seal it up and save it for another project or sell it to some one else doing a project at a cost cheaper than hell pay for the other products.
Good information. Please keep updating us as you proceed. One clarification: POR cures by exposure to moisture, not oxygen. The humidity in the air (or the latent moisture in rusty metal) causes it to cure. You can prevent this by not opening a POR can. Stab a hole in the lid with a punch, pour out what you need, and seal the hole with tape. I have a quart of POR that is several years old and the remaining paint is still good. Lastly, you are talking two part epoxies. I believe that POR is a cyanoacrylate. POR uses the moisture in the metal to cure and then provides an inpenetrable seal so that future moisture cannot get to the metal. This is why POR likes to go on over rust. Clean unrusted metal has no moisture; the key to the process is lost. It sounds like the two part epoxy system has a different basis. The good news is that this should allow it to be applied to unrusted metal. The down side might be that the clever moisture-trapping capability of POR is not available.
Check out Magnet Paint - Chassis Saver. A lot of good information on the site. http://www.magnetpaints.com/underbody.asp
I just use Ospho from Home depot. cheap and works, just watch the cement....it will turn it white. Plenty of info on here about this one.
I'm still not sold. http://www.tfhrc.gov/hnr20/bridge/mastic.htm Looks like Zinc rich primers perform better. Chassis saver works really good. Used on blasted frames before.
Personally, I'll stick with something like SEM Rust-Mort, a good wire-brushing (at least), and whatever bad-surface primer and paint goes over that. POR15 isn't my product of choice, It sticks fine to rust-roughened or maybe fairly coarsely blasted surfaces, but you've got to make sure the surface is coarse metal as it won't stick to clean bare metal, fillers, other paints, or any other material that might be present on a surface. If you're going to topcoat it it's critical to get a coat of some non-POR15 primer on the surface while the POR15 is still tacky, as nothing will stick to it once it's cured. And if you don't topcoat it make sure it's not exposed to the sun; every hour POR15 spends exposed to solar UV is equal to a year of exposure for normal paints, two weeks outdoors and it'll be peeling. Just my take.
There's a product called Hammerite not to be confused with rustoleum hammer finish. Hammerite has microscopic glass particles in it and it creates a moisture shield over rust. I've used it and it's great stuff, but getting hard to find. http://www.masterchem.com/pages/default.aspx?NavID=42 Some testimonials http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...Cap-Paint-quot-Hammered-Finish-quot-Cans.html
I use a product called PHIX. Its made by a company in Iowa called PPE. Its not a paint but a rust treatment. It converts rust into a zinc coating. Its $45 a gallon and you can get it in a spray quart. It works great spray it on let it set hit it with a red scotchbrite wipe off the excess and go.
Interesting replies. I am looking forward to seeing more. I read the article domepiece posted the link to, I wonder if the results would be similiar to the POR-15 results JEM stated if POR-15 was exposed to the same tests.
Try Imron industrial marine by dupont ... comes in satin , semi gloss and Gloss . solid colors only .. 3 parts paint to one part hardener .. This stuff is meant to be painted on the hulls of boats and then rolled into the ocean within 24 Hrs .. Bullet proof
I don't think the Imron product is the one to use. I've sprayed a lot of it when I worked in a truck body shop. It's strong stuff, too strong, IMO, for the average home builder. Breathing the activated paint can make you extremely sick, or worse. I'm sure the other products like the epoxy mastic and the POR-15 type products should be applied with the proper respiratory protective equipment but activated Imron is much nastier stuff and you need professional type equipment.
Rust encapsulator paints do start to cure as soon as you open the can. I learned a trick years ago that works, use your MIG gun and flood the can with inert gas and close the lid. Weeks later the stuff is still usable.
Yes. This works well with Eastwood. Call them and ask for the MSDS, they will send it. I've done that and had the "real" name for the product still on the MSDS. I asked about their battery tray protector and the sheet had all the Plasti-Dip info on it, that's who makes it for Eastwood. Ed
Bob's right. An old shop teacher of mine knew a guy who painted his truck with Imron in his home shop with only a basic respirator. Supposedly he didn't wake up the next morning. Don't know if that's true or not, but I wouldn't want to find out!
THE industrial Imron marine is about $100 a gallon , actually its 3/4 gallon and one quart of hardener .. you can use it as you like 3 parts to 1 .. you can brush and roll it .this product is about 95% of the automotive grade in terms of durability and resistance to uv rays .. the other 5% will cost you about another $400 dollars per kit. yes .. close to $500 or so per gallon depending color .. all these urethane paints contain isocyannate ,, bad for the body . I dont think one encounter with it will send you to St.Peter though ...
Hi, there running in to the same proble POR-15 is to much. 5yrs ago it was 35 a qu. Now went to get so for my "A" and it was 50 a qu. So looking for somthing else to. Could you tell me the name of the Rustoleum, Went to there site and all i found was a ratal can of rust stop. No to part so what was the name of the rustoleum stuff????????????? THANKS..
Have used Rust Bullet with good results. I have also used POR15, and wouldn't recommend it. I followed the instructions to a t, and the stuff pealed a year later. I have head similar results from others.
I did some test about Ferromax on a rusted plate laying outside in 3 years. The Ferromax is clear (no colorpigment) and was reduced by weather and enviroment in about 3 months. Also Ferromax mixed with colored paint (50/50) didnt hold more than about 1,5y. Old car recipie was using Owatrol1 boat varnish 50/50 together with black enamel, this function very well as on my brothers farme,still okay after 20 years. Coldpressed Linseed oil is also clear but kept good in about 6months. Mixed 50/50 with black enamel its still great after 3 years, and is still in shops. owatrol has ended production, so the Linseed oil is to be used by me! Checked by local paintproducers ,the egineers told that the Linseed oil is used in a lot of the "rustpaints", but its reduced by the envirement.When mixed with colored pigments it keeps its original base, and dont get reduced.
Ospho from Home Depot or Ace or any other hardware store is phosperic acid (don't know if I spelled that right). Its the same thing as all the rust converter products at a fraction of the cost. I converts the rust but does not seal it. Use any kind of epoxy over this. In the marine industry they just use epoxy resin. You can use epoxy paint or primer. Epoxy is moisture impervious (one part paints are not) and is a superior adhesive and sealer. Don't use epoxy as a final finish if it will be exposed to sunlight. It fades and chalks in sun. If you coat over epoxy before it has completely cured the finish will stick. If you let the epoxy cure, nothing will stick. You need to sand cured epoxy real good before rfinishing.
First, if you don't like encapsulators don't pay attention to this post. I am posting the following for those who are interested in my experience with this product. I finally bought a two gallon kit of PPG Pittguard. I applied it three different ways to three scrap pieces of metal that were half sand blasted and half rust and on three spots on the rusted frame of my '37 Buick. On the rusty areas I only did a quick hit with a had held wire brush to get the loose rust off and then I wiped the areas off with lacquer thinner. The products out of the cans is very think. The paint is the consistency of honey or think enamel paint, the catalyst has the consistency of peanut butter but when you mix them together the mixture starts to thin out a little. First I used just the paint and catalyst, without any thinner. It took about 48 hours to dry but dried to a hard, semi gloss surface. PPG does have an accelerator but I didn't buy any. The surface turned hard enough that it takes quite a bit of effort to scrape off or scratch, not quite as hard as I remember the POR-15 product I used but it's very tough. POR-15 also dried a lot faster. The second set of test pieces I mixed with the xylene, as per the PPG rep I talked to on the phone. The xylene can states it's a slow drying thinner for epoxy. It took a lot longer to dry, about 4-5 days, to achieve the same hardness as the straight mixture. It dried to a duller finish than the straight mixture. When it finally dried completely it was as hard as the first test pieces. The third set of test pieces I mixed with lacquer thinner. The lacquer can states it's a fast drying thinner for epoxy. This mixture took about as long as the straight mixture and dried to the same hardness but duller finish. One test I did not conduct is on clean new metal, I don't know if this product will have same problems bonding to new, non-blasted or rusted metal like POR-15 does. Unfortunately, I don't have much smooth metal on my Buick to work with with. The new metal I used in my trunk and on the floors I will dust with the blaster to get a texture. I am not an chemist and don't have equipment to do a proper scientific procedure to test this product. I could have added too much thinner in the last two batches that could be the reason for the duller finish. Also, the can said pot life at 70° is 4 hours, I kept my shop down to around 65°, a little cooler at night so that might have retarded the curing time. I am happy with the results. This product, IMO, will stand up a lot better than regular store bought enamel or automotive paint and I think it's be just a durable a the encapsulators marketed to the auto hobbyists. It'll be a lot cheaper than products like POR-15 that cost $45 a quart, $150 a gallon. I paid $100 for two gallon kit, plus another $15-20 gallon for the thinners. I had to order this product from my local privately owned hardware store that sells PPG paint products. I'll have at least two gallons of product for 1/3 the cost. If I thin it some I'll get even more. I plan to use the straight mixture on most of my frame and parts of the body that won't be getting painted like the inside of the trunk, the top and bottom of the floor and the inside fender areas. I'll thin it a little to be able to have it flow easier into the hard to reach areas like the inside of the frame rails. I will blast everything before applying so it will have good clean surface to bond to. I am sure I won't be able to get to every spot inside the frame with the blaster so I am hoping the thinned product will find those places.
So what do folks reccomend for floors and rearends etc... I used POR15 a long time ago was happy with it, but I'd like to do a lot less pretty just hit the spots with a wire brush and some thinner or whatever to clean off the oils.
I realize this is an old post but I thought I would throw this on here as a reference incase anyone else is looking for this info. I had a hell of a time trying to find info on the net about it. (Old company, not really up to date with the whole internet thing!) Another great product that is equal in quality with POR-15 is called Ensign 395-A. It's made in Cleveland Ohio and unless you live around this area you aren't going to be able to find it. But for all you Ohio folk you are in luck. With the price being at $60 a GALLON it is less then HALF the price. You can't beat that! I have heard nothing but praise out of this product.
I've had very good results with the Eastwood paint. Painted my trailer a few years ago and the stuff is still holding strong. Not a bad price ether.
Just an update, it's been a while since I sprayed the epoxy mastic on my frame. So far it seems very scratch resistant. I've dragged and dropped metal cable and parts across it and haven't scraped it down to bare metal. Also, I just finished plumbing my entire brake system and had a few minor leaks, with brake fluid coming in contact with the epoxy with no lifting or other visible affect. Even after sitting on the epoxy over night I wiped up a couple of small puddles of brake fluid without damaging it. So far I'm pretty happy with it.
All the rust encapsolating products use Phospohirc acid as the base chemical...Just use something like ospho and dont fall into the marketing scam. Phosophoric acid is sold cheaply as a concrete etcher or cleaner at Home Depot etc.
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