Messing with a VIN tag can get you an orange jump suit!

Maybe not in theory, but in the real world they do every day. I've seen it happen a bunch. Sure, get you a lawyer or wait until they decide it's ok, pay the towing and storage and you can get it back.
Larry T

 

In NC if any car that is 35 years old or older, is transferred from out of state (running or not) it has to be inspected by NCDMV. If it has an original type engine it will be issued an original title and if it is modified(street rod, engine changed, ect.) it will be issued a title and vin ending in SR and a new VIN tag will be installed.
Does this mean that the NCDMV officer is committing a felony and should be locked up for ten years?

 

chances are they let it happen ..buy not knowing how to stand up for thier rights..and after it was proven the officials that took their shit away wrongly werent prosecuted for it, than they dont learn either

 

Ya might check this out. Pretty typical example.
Larry T
http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55220

 

another good point..and a good way to turn the tables back on them..the onis of responsibility was just now transfered to their system..and their people

those that knowingly do nothing wrong have nothing to fear..those that knowingly do something wrong have everything to fear.

I dont worry about standing up for what i know about my stuff..and it will be a communist day in america when a cop thinks hes judge jury and exicutioner andd comes across me, I sure could use the law suit money.
none of my stuff is illegal so i have no fear for standing up for my rights

 

Probably alot of good info here, but for some reason I don't feel like I know any more then I did yesterday. Good reading though!

 

The CHP are real picky. wire brushing, sanding, grinding,
scotch brite pad just to remove surface rust, painting over,
frame numbers will definately raise some eyebrows. ​

 

So now what? have we concluded anything here?
I'm just curious.

 

I think it came down to proceed at your own risk do you feel lucky??? If you never get questioned or checked obviously there will be no problem. Sounds like the biggest risk is at the State DMV and Police level. To me messing with a VIN or title is like playing Russian roulette with five chambers filled! Should you get caught it will be a hard road to hoe getting it all straightened out, seems like it would be best to do it right (Legal) the first time, no looking over your shoulder that way. I know I won't buy another one that doesn't look correct.

 

Come and get me coppers!!!!!!!

 

Here we go again.... I can only speak for what they do here in the state of New Hampshire. Every state is different and the feds have another set of laws to boot. Here in NH on any vehicle over 15 years old we don't need a title. What we use instead every time a vehicle gets sold is one of these VIN verification forms. It needs to be signed by a DMV cop, licensed car dealer, or state inspection station before you can register the vehicle. It's a shitty pic, sorry, but if you look closely you'll see 3 boxes that refer to the VIN number. They say "altered" "changed" or "missing" If ANY of those boxes get checked you will not only not get plates, you will also get a visit from a DMV cop who WILL impound the vehicle until they figure out why the VIN has been messed with. At the top of the form you will also notice that it's from the bureau of Title & Anti Theft. Not the "I lost my VIN tag so I made my own" department... They don't care why your tag has been swapped or that you bought it from a nice guy on the HAMB or that your grandmother bought the car new & the tag fell off years ago. They only care that something ain't right and they can & will fuck up your life until they figure it all out. You armchair lawyers are probably right that they don't have the "right" to take your stuff without a warrant and you may even get it back eventually. After spending thousands of bucks on a real lawyer.... Personally it ain't worth the hassle to me.. And before some of the more "outspoken" members here get their chests all puffed out and tell me I'm full of shit, I've been licensed in NH to do state inspections for around 25 years, currently work for a used car dealer, have been a licensed dealer in the past, and sign these forms every day. If you come to me with a bogus tag I would probably simply tell you I can't help you and to have a nice day (since I am a car guy first & foremost and NOT a cop) Take a minute & read the story the other guy linked to on the Jockey Journal about the bikes being randomly checked & impounded. All it takes is for a cop to have the same attitude against hot rodders as most of them have against "bikers" and you're gonna lose your ride until you spend a ton of bucks proving it's not stolen.

 

Nope nothing as usual..

move along folks, nothin ta see here

 

When I re-titled my A here in Pennsylvania as a "street rod" they sent me a new title and a new VIN plate,instructing me to remove the old plate and attach the new. I saved the plate, and the letter.

 

I restored my 40 Plymouth Paint interior etc etc.. The Serial number looked like crap, they make re pro ones I did not want to remove the plate .. (That history channel guy ) had shows that the Dept of Motor vehicles had stooped the auctions.. ..... So I came up with this idea.. just get a copy of the paint work put on a mylar film clean old paint and install over the "original plate"... If this is bad maybe I should not be allowed to of painted my car either ...

 

Sadly you're probably right. Some guys will continue to risk it and alot of them will probably get away with it and I wish them the best. I simply have too much time & money invested in my stuff to take that risk. To each his own. Plymouth, very creative & looks great. I'm betting no DMV guy would have a problem at all with that since you haven't messed with the stamped numbers or removed the tag. What guys don't want to face is that this legal stuff is real. There are cases of guys who simply sold repro VIN tag rivets being busted by the feds and charged with a felony. Don't ask me to quote actual cases, I'm not a cop & I don't play one on TV but it's a well known fact that it has happened.

 

Exactly..same here..

i wouldnt even think of playing that game.
my shit is 100% Legit..thats why im not afraid to stand up to them if they think they might have a patsy..good luck with that coppers..


I think the biggest thing they would have to prove is if there was truely nefarious intent..and with some, that could prove to be way to hard for some ol flat foot. or the system..they would have more on you than just that to begin with IMO

i think they would be gunning for you in other ways for other reasons, I myself dont have these worries

 

Mine came from the factory w/two clutch head screws holding the Serial (not VIN) Tag on it. So I guess I have nothing to worry about ...joe

 

Von Rigg. You are all good, but you are giving out horrible advice.

I would not have the above attitude unless you are very rich, and you have nothing to do with your time. You do not want to get caught up fighting the law. Wasn't that a song?

They have all the money and court system. And they have all the time in the world.

They want their money / revenue. They have figured out it is huge tax dollars they are not getting.

The gov't / DMV did not use to care. Now they do. THINGS HAVE CHANGED. I guy I know was arrested recently for 3 felonies, accused with tampering with vin tags. He was cleared eventually after huge legal bills, and tons of time, and almost spending many years in prison etc...

Same with jumping titles.

###### I just had to go to court because I forgot to sign my name on a title = an open title = illegal. I have that hanging over my head. And it was just a mistake that I forgot to sign. I was charged with a crime, not just a fine. Really blows when you are a small business like me always trying and doing the right thing, just trying to feed your family. I am a small hot rod shop and I sell some cars. I could be shut down for a clerical error. I just don't have the money and or time to fight for my rights / innocence. And if I shut the door in the DMV Officers face, I would be able to support my family.

If you have a title signed as sold without your name filled into the buyer spot, same goes to you.

And if you sell a car illegally, the buyer "owns you" at that point.

Don't think that the guy you are buying a car from with a strange vin tag or if you are jumping a title / not paying taxes / pretending to be a dealer / not putting it in your name won't flip on you when they question him. It is him or you, he will pick him. If they ask him if there was a vin tag on the car when he sold it to you, I promise you he will not risk going to jail by telling them the car was like that. = you go to jail, not him.
I am sure he will find old pics of the car where there was no tag on it, remember they have already given him a deal to walk. This is reality today, not just Matlock.

DMV is starting to question people about classic car transactions, and I promise you that the guy that you bought the car from or sold it to when you jumped the title will flip on you in a second when offered a walk.

DMV is not playing anymore.

It does not matter right and wrong in court, just the law. I was innocent, and still charged. Does not matter.

Guys, do what you want, but there is a National movement to enforce DMV laws seriously. You will be seeing a lot of seized vehicles and people going to jail in the very very near future.

Good luck
from the recently procecuted

Wil
www.sakowskimotors.com

 

Sorry I'M from Canada ! Why would any one be checking your cars. I"ve driven my hot rods practicaly every day for the last 30 odd years. I have never been stopped, even going back and forth over the boarder. Oh ya I got a speeding ticket in Norwells model A. Why do they come after you guys ?

 

Im 100% legit..so i fear nothing. And those games you posted in your article, i dont play those, so...

My advice is to hot rodders of my peers. And its good advise to those doing it right. Not those who play the skirt edge..those are the ones who have things to fear when they come knocking..if you did nothing wrong..dont lay down for them..thats what they want.

remember..go read your 5th..if you are secure in your belongings, you have nothing to fear.
if you dont do it right..well than dont take my advise..not that they would anyways, because they know they are playing the system. and if they are, they get what they got coming to them.

plus i have documentation of my cars in all states of completion from the day they came to my possesion and all of them went thru our DMV title search..so if they question me..they are also questioning their own system..

besides..its just my opinion..no one said they need to listen to me..but I have been at this car crap for many years,And building HD's (thats another sketchy buiz with all the hot harleys and all) and not once have i even had one sketchy deal..or i wouldnt play it.

Its all in how you conduct yourself

seems like most of these issues are a california thing..?..?..no im not bashing the state, or the residence.
I think you guys are getting railroaded..because of all the sketchy shit that has gone on out there in the past..I dont believe it should paint all hot rodders in that light.
but the taste of blood in those Feds and cops, can sure bring on the heat

 

And you may never be hassled as long as you plan on keeping them all forever. If you ever sell one and it's got a "funny" VIN that's when I suspect the problems would come to light.

 

Why would anyone be checking our cars? Because there are unscrupulous individuals that steal cars, then represent them (by altering VINs) as something different in order to sell them, for one.
If you are stopped by law enforcement for a moving violation, they will check your registration papers against their computerized database for stolen vehicles, also.

 

1st thing you do when buying an old car before you sink one dime into it..have the numbers run..i dont know why this is so hard for people to understand. and its worth every dime..

so when you do make a minor traffic violation..you wont be wondering if your taking a ride in the back of that black and white.

you will know your project is clear, before you spend countless dollars on it

and if this is also bad advise..well than I must be doing it all wrong, and getting lucky then

 

I see here that the people who didn't get it the first 500 times still want to believe that pop-rivets are legal.

the owner is exempt
And, you're the owner the minute you show that the VIN and title match. Meanwhile, they have the car, and you have a summons.

show me the search warrent
Uuhhh....
they don't need a warrant if they have reasonable cause to believe a crime has been committed.

Our constitution does say you are innocent until proven guilty
No, it doesn't.

burdon of proof
Not relevant. They have the car (similar: firearm, cash, boat - any kind of shiny stuff cops like to collect). They don't have to prove anything - they just keep the car.
Did you mean, "after my lawyer files a motion for an order requiring them to return the car, and they don't respond, and a judge believes my argument"? That comes a couple of years later, on the trial calendar. No, you don't get your fees back.
Treasury has a gun of mine that I've quit asking about. I have a receipt and everything, but they just won't talk to me. Do you think I should wait any longer? It was seized (no warrant) in 1964.

If you really, truly want to wear an orange jump-suit and have baloney sandwiches for lunch, telling a cop what he can and cannot do is a sure-fire method.
Not sure yet?
Talk to anyone with an older bike.
Ever see the T-shirt "Ride a Bike, Go to Jail"?

Bet $1.00 that within 24 hours some squid will ask "whar kin ah git me wunnadose VINz?"

 

Awwww man....you mean I'm going to jail for taking the shock towers out of my Falcon? Darnit!


I just removed all the tags from my mattress and pillows too. I'm in big trouble.

 

As we all know that first they have to prove all malicious acts and prove intent. My friend is a former Viper( car theft detail) cop here in vegas and they only went after professional theives..They have better things to do than mess with a guy who only has to say he didnt know. Its the same as not having a front license plate. If you are cool ,they are not going to screw with you. If you are a tool they will use it against you..Cops dont know shit about cars, the Dmv doesnt shit about cars or vin/serial numbers for that matter. I welcome the challenge. I spoke to a DMV guy when I went to verify my car and he asked me where the numbers should be. There are no books vin locations on early cars c.a. the 1920's,1930's that I know of. I went to the dmv and forgot to put my 68 camaro vin on the dash from when I replace the dash with a weld in one. It was in the ash tray. They cared less if it was on or off. People worry too much. If you look into the laws, you actually cannot cut up or cut anything off your car at your house without a permit or license..Cut a quarter panel, your breaking the law.Its true, stupid as it seems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I look good in orange , its calming........ : )

 

What I don't want to see is a crackdown, causing all of our registrations to be called into question. There are already far too many people getting away with something, who's cars will not survive the scrutiny.

My stuff is legit, is YOURS?

Why give them a reason? Why take the chance?

Why potentially put the very survival of our hobby at risk? Just follow the law. It is not that hard, and it IS the right thing to do. If you build requires a committing a felony to complete it, just don't do it.

If the risk was just yours, I would not mind. But it is all our risk. I'd prefer to not discover the threshold that has to be crossed before modifying a car, or having an old one becomes illegal.

Everybody bitches about California. The laws are written in plain English, and are easy to follow. If we follow them, then it keeps the man off our backs.

CHP and DMV have the will and the power to go after us, one-at-a-time. That is their job. You might be able to prove that you did not have intent, or knowledge, but you get to do that in court, and lawyering-up is not cheap, and you still might not get the car back.

Learn your state's laws. Learn how to make them work for you. It is not that hard. Ignore this at all our peril.

 

I bought and registered and out of state Stude truck a year or so back. When I went to the CA DMV to do it, the lady came out to look at the truck and I showed her where the VIN was and she looked at it and then asked if there was any other locations with VIN. I said, not that I know, I am pretty sure that was it. The VIN plate for this model Stude trucks is inside the driver's door jamb and spot welded on.

So, she goes, ok, hold on a minute and takes off. About 5 min. later she comes out with another guy and they get to looking at the VIN a lot closer and discussing back and forth and start kind of gesturing with some serious looks on their faces and out of nowhere I start thinking uh oh, they aren't buying it for some reason and I wasn't quite sure why. I was starting to think I was about to be in some trouble. But, then the guy goes ok, let it go, it's ok. I was like, wow, holy crap, that could have turned unexpectedly bad. The VIN was the right one and that is how Stude did it on those trucks. But, at first i was thinking maybe it came back hot or something and they were just rechecking the numbers.

So, lesson is, they do sometimes check the plates and the condition of it and the attachment and if it isn't convincing enough or seems odd, you might get called out on it. Not sure what would have happened if they decided they didn't like what they saw, but glad it didn't go that far. And again, this was a totally legit, unaltered, not even damaged VIN plate.

My other truck has a good VIN and title and was an out of state truck that I brought into CA and got registered and now is on non-op. It had just screws holding on the VIN. Never thought much of it until now. It's been seven years and I can't recall now what the deal was when registering it and if they saw it or not, but I kind of remember them asking about that too, but letting it slide. Quite a while back, I just unscrewed the plate to keep it for safe keeping while the truck is just a pile of parts being worked on. Hope this isn't going to lead to some trouble down the road. I did keep the screws, but now wondering if somebody previously did something and changed them to screws and now I have inherited a future problem of some sort. I have a sim. truck that is just a couple years later that has screws and spot welds to hold it on. But, this truck only seemed to have screws and no evidence of anything ever being spot welded. I need to do some Stude VIN research I think.

 

I love Canada!!! No bullshit. What is a DMV? We call it "MTO" Ministry of Transportation. They are in NO way affiliated with the cops, and the only qualification you need to work there is have a grade 12 education...Good luck down there in the States...

 

Yeah, plenty of like 55-64 cars with glued on or spotwelded on tags that just fall off on their own, sometimes for no apparent reason. How the hell is anyone going to know if the thing's been epoxied back on?

I notice they leave out things like rust repair or collision damage. Know where the tag is in a 47-52 Stude? At the bottom of the doorjam. I've picked up two or three of them off the ground from under the rotting carcasses.

And try at least the 59-60 Cadillacs. The Motors books say to use the engine number, but they have a tag. In the doorjam. That basically amounts to a laminated piece of cardstock with a stamping on it. Riveted on with plain looking rivets.

Best one of all though has to be the '53 Skylark carcass I had. This was most assuredly an original car, wrecked when not that old. Tag on the left rocker panel (!!) and attached with ordinary phillips head screws (!!!). Ever see what a mint one of those sells for?


I think if you're doing it for your car you're going to drive, there's no reason to worry, espeically in states that don't inspect the VIN. If you're planning to flip the car, then don't mess with it, if it's loose, I guess you have a problem.