YES! The Whitney Straight 8CM is often seen in Vintage Race events here on the East Coast, and I'm sure the owner would ship it wherever he would like to race it. It couldn't have a better owner. I was told that getting the original matching number engine back in the chassis took some time and expence.
Robert, Welcome to the HAMB. The FRP artwork is great, I always wished I could draw. At first glance is reminds me of trhe Bugatti "Black Bess", I like the front belly pan, light gray body, maroon running gear, and maybe black wheels would be my color choise. Is this the Kennedy car you mentioned, it is HISSO powered? If so it used the radiator from the Blitzen Benz that was parted out in the late teens. The rear axle wound up in "Babs" the Perry Thomas LSR car that took his life.
Quote; Earlier this month, T-Head posted a side-elevation view of the 1915 Knight-engined F.R.P. racer. I just love old drawings and stuff like this, so I decided to use it as the basis for a rendering of what the failed F.R.P racer might have looked like. I also used the poor photo of the two cars at the hotel as well as the front view photo posted by Mr. Dillon for reference. Robert......You have done a beautiful job of capturing what in my eye is one of the most attractive early race cars built. Thanks so much for sharing it with us and please show us the finished product. How is your art work done?
David, I don't know if it's a Mors with a few details missing although the louvers suggest it is but who is the driver and all alone for that matter.
This probably was Baron de Cater's car which, if I remember correctly, came 7th or 8th in the 1902 Paris-Vienna race. You can see the resemblance to the Mors with some artists license added particularly the louvres and the two opening covers on the hood (bonnet). This supposedly was on the Alburg pass. Photo of a 1902 Mors that shows the similarities.
This supposedly is Earl Kiser with his 60 HP Winton Bullet at the Minnesota State Fair track in Hamline. He finished five miles with a time of 4 minutes and 44 3/5 seconds in 1905.
The thing I like about this thread is the fact that when the car topic chanes I have something within arms reach to add. I think this is Willy K. with his Mors, if someone knows the location of the event please let us know.
Another dum question from the peanut gallery. Was the cooling efficiency THAT bad that these race cars had giant radiators like this? Seems like a lot of extra weight. I remember thinking this when looking at the Grey Wolfe recreation at Hershey. The engines were not putting out that much HP per cubic inches, like today, to create heat. I think/hope some of you guys have first hand experiance with these cars.
AAA Contest Board Sanction No. 799 was issued to the Western Automobile Association for a road race on 17 March in Venice, California, the sanctioning fee being $300. It was the "St. Patrick's Day Grand Prize," a 300-mile event being the inaugural event for a planned series of races at Venice. The event was won by Oldfield in a Maxwell. Another Maxwell driven by Carlson was second, with the Maxwell of Rickenbacher retiring with an oil line that split. According to contemporary accounts, the fourth place Bugatti of Marquis struck a spectator attempting to cross the track, the injuries proving fatal.
The engines back then had very low compression ratios (because of the lower octane fuels) which caused for inefficient combustion which transfered more heat that was wasted instead of being tuned into useful energy. The other problem was the huge combustion chambers (needed for low compression) with a lot of surface area that allowed more heat to transfer into the block and coolant. One other issue was the slow turning engines with long stokes also gave the heat more time to soak in and the long strokes in effect also exposed more cylinder area to the heat. The most inefficient form is a T-Head (I get accused of being that way) because of the two valve pockets. The other two early combustion chamber shapes are also shown. The overhead valve can have the least amount of surface area of all of them along with all of the energy directed in the right direction on the piston. The Peugeot racing engine with its overhead valves set the standard for years to come in 1912 with the DOHC 4-valve engine. This was a very efficient combustion chamber along with excellent and efficient ports and it was a world beater that was widely copied. I have actually found after raising the compression ratio in some of these engines (allowable within reason) to take advantage of better fuels we have, that they will then actually run cooler as the heat is being used for work instead of being wasted and absorbed into the blocks and coolant. noboD, you question is not dumb at all it just sounds like you are learning about early vehicles and thanks for showing interest. We need everyone we can get interested in them. I noticed that you mentioned in a post that you are a machinist, what type, automotive or general?
Thanks T Head, the surface area/slow RPM theory makes sense to me. I mostly did tool and die work until 10 years ago when the work went to China.
Welcome Vitesse and it's a pleasure to see the cross-pollination between the HAMB and TNF if it's not been done before. "The Nostalgia Forum" here: http://forums.autosport.com/ which is an incredible resource for all kinds of racing history.
V, these are photographs from the 1937 II George Vanderbilt Cup.... The Auto-Union team did not enter the 1936 event. "Bernd Rosmeyer - Auto Union Again from the 1936 Vanderbilt" "Note the sponsors logo Vanderbilt 1936: the organisers insisted on it - I've always assumed it was in the regulations, as all the cars carried their national flags"
Nothing quite remotely what it used to be much less what it was intended to be, but, then again, few things are. I am less than enthralled with what has resulted from when it was created over ten years, but whenever history and nostalgia clash, the latter usually seems to have the upper hand, particularly on the internet.
Earl Cooper. Why do you ask? 1st pic- finished 4th at Indy 500 2nd pic- from left- Earl Cooper - Harry Stutz - Gil Anderson @ 1915 Minneapolis 500. 3rd pic- DNF @ 1915 American Grand Prize
There wasn't one. AAA had for a couple of seasons prior annointed their National Champion but did away with it prior to 1915. The press may have gushed about whom they thought should be but their was not one officially until of course some years later when the powers got out their oiuja boards-Jim
Yes i agree. I have noticed discrepancies like this only in the reporting of American races. Who to believe? The print press of the day or...? In the October 6. 1915. The New York Times article it is reported that George Clark was the 5th place finisher aswell as receiving $500 dollars in prize money. The only words written about De Palma was his push and shove with Bragg prior to his crash and an article two days later reporting about his broken leg.
I asked because it occurred to me that about 99 percent of what has been posted in the thread are nuts & bolts stuff or gazillions of photographs with scarcely a word of context, history, being provided. The photograph of Oldfield at the Venice St. Patrick's Day event, his Maxwell being at first considered a Stutz, made me realize that no one piped up to state that this was one of Oldfield's few national championship wins, which is the usual response. Actually, "kurtis," it may or may not come as a surprise to you that Earl Cooper was not the 1915 US national champion, at least not concurrent with the 1915 season. The Syracuse Herald of 24 October 1915 and the New York Times of 12 December 1915, both present Earl Cooper as being the 1915 champion driver. The title was determined, we are informed, by the use of the "Mason Point System." Although the NYT article does not state the origin of the points system, the article in the Syracuse newspaper tells us that The Horseless Age used the Mason system to determine the champion driver. The 1915 standings according to the two articles were: Earl Cooper, 51 points Gil Anderson, 38 points Eddie O'Donnell, 38 points Resta Rickenbacher Oldfield De Palma Ruckstell Burman Pullen Mulford In addition, there was a champion car: Stutz, 121 7/8 points Maxwell, 70 1/2 points Duesenberg, 65 7/8 points Peugeot, 49 3/4 points Mercer, 23 points The Syracuse newspaper also mentions that Cooper was the "road champion of 1913," and that there were 22 speed events in the 1915 season. The Syracuse Herald for 19 December 1915 provides us with more regarding the possible 1915 national champion. First, The Herald cites Motor Age[/] naming its national champions for the 1915 season: Driver, Gil Anderson; and, car, Stutz. Earl Cooper is also mentioned as being the road race champion for the second time. Motor Age[/i] divided the nine tracks into two divisions: Major: Indianapolis, Chicago (Mayewood), New York (Sheepshead Bay in Brooklyn), and Twin Cities (Minneapolis, Fort Snelling). Minor: Omaha, Des Moines, Providence, Sioux City, and Tacoma. The concurrent selection of Anderson as the 1915 champion driver is interesting given that in the 1984 CART Annual that John Glenn Printz has the Motor Age selection as Cooper. Second, the newspaper provides the selection of Motor, as determined by C.G. Sinsabaugh for the 1915 champion driver and car: Dario Resta and Stutz, respectively. The runner-up to Resta is E.V. Rickenbacher. Which, of course, brings us to the 8 February 1929 Bulletin of the AAA Contest Board's Official Bulletin, where Val Haresnape and Arthur Means provide lists of "AAA national champions" for seasons prior to the inaugural season of the AAA national championship, 1916, as well as for the seasons 1917 thru 1919 when the AAA did not award its national championship, as well as changing the 1920 national from Gaston Chevrolet to Tommy Milton. This latter bit of revisionism was changed back within a few years, Chevrolet once more being named as the 1920 national champion. However, Russ Catlin, who was the public relations man for the AAA Contest Board in the late Forties and the earl Fifties, rummaged about the archives and as part of the 50th anniversary of the AAA in 1902, had the Contest Board create retroactive champions for each year -- excepting 1942-1945 -- of the AAA. Catlin created "national champions" for 1902 to 1908, then took the Haresnape/Means listing of 1929 -- changing the 1909 "national champion" from Bert Dingley to George Robertson -- and used that to create a listing of new "AAA national champions" in 1951 for 1909 to 1915 and 1917 to 1919, plus he changed the 1920 national champion from Chevrolet to Milton. I have taken to referring to this as "The Catlin Catastrophe." So, there was no concurrent AAA national champion for 1915, but there was not a lack of opinion as to whom the motoring magazines thought it was. I knew that Jim would get it.
This largely due to the carelessness of journalists and Enthusiasts later on, few undertaking any original research and simply passing along errors that soon became embedded in subsequent articles, books, and -- naturally -- the internet when it finally arrived. This is known as "The Jackets Corollary."
The 1905 AAA National Motor Car Championship has been something of an enigma until recent years. It certainly existed and there is no record of its being canceled as many are quick to claim. It is, perhaps, correct to say that it simply faded into the background after the crashes, fatalities, and serious injuries of the July and August timeframe, so that when the Poughkeepsie event was held at the end of September, the initial interest had waned significantly. I did find a reference to Oldfield being awarded a medal by the AAA as the 1905 national champion in a January 1906 newspaper, but that is all I have found that specifically mentions this. We do have what appears to be a good record of the events and their results for the 1905 national championship. It must also be mentioned that changes in the leadership of the AAA which took place in the aftermath of the season must have had a bearing on the silence which resulted from the AAA regarding this championship. What is clear is that it was not revived for the 1906 or subsequent seasons and I have found no references to it as the concept for the inaugural AAA national champion in 1916 was being discussed.
So....... i should throw away the few books i have on American racing? Don, as you can see i'm not surprised.
I finally found a photo of the Simplex Zip in it's earlier form after it had won a race at an event on Old Orchard Beach In Maine. I wonder if this is Disbrow behind the wheel as it kind of looks like him. Maybe someone has records of races wins on the beach so we can learn more?
The Jalopy Journal
