OK so twin engine dragsters and those trator pull rigs with engines side by side running through ONE gear box. How do they do it? do the tractor guys buy a "KIT" for the trans? Ive seen dragsters with the gear box off to one side but how did they tie the engines together? how did they get the "hot wheels" twin mill 1 to 1 full size car to work????? Man I just gotta know FRITZ
The tractor guys usually build a greabox that transfers the power to a central point where it hooks up to the driveline. The tractor puller I built engines for, for 8 years, had a transverse gearbox that he made with several meshed gears with 4 engines (two facing forward and two facing backward). We could pull 1,2, or 3 engines off with quick disconnect couplers, and run different weight cl***es at the same meet. I know there are way more powerful combinations but when you have 4 500 c.i. engines at 7,000 RPM straining for all their worth and knowing you built them, it's quite a feeling. Now imagine that there are 5 and 6 engine combinations that are blown, injected and fuel burning hemis on the unlimited rigs you are no longer super impressed with the power put out by a AA/FD. To top that a lot of the top contenders carry at least 3 or 4 spare engines when they are out on the road touring. Frank
Whaddya know ,Fritz...I was just reading up on this very subject today....Tommy Ivo's twin engine rail had meshed starter rings with one central point/driveshaft....not sure about the 4 engined 'Showboat",though..... As often told,Roth joined two rear ends from two '48 Fords and modified the gears to allow for one engine operation,if desired ,for the infamous Mysterion....He utilized twin driveshafts and two C6 ******s...but hell....I'm going into territory you already know.....What about M.Thompson's Challenger I?
Okay fritz...I hope you are happy now...I'm all hung up on your trip.... Mickey Thompson's "MONSTER"? Side by side engines (the first),but the left one operates normally (the rear wheels) and the REVERSED right side powers the FRONT wheels? Again, meshed starter gears to keep them both running at the same speed.... Again...what are you up to?
Ah John Im just a gear head ya know. Im just all hung up on how the hell these guys did it. the twin mill thing that was built for hot wheels i was told had ONE ******. so how does a person drive both engines and get it all to one trans? Im sure there are a bunch of ways to do it, Roths way with the two ******s seems to be to easy, Im all hung up on the 2 engines 1 ****** thing. Its killing me. FRITZ
More.....HOT ROD 2/61 Cover feature on the Dragmaster Co.'s "TWO THING"....twin GMC blown V8 engines, rotating in opposite directions....one engine operates regularly,the second adds power to the first in rotating the driveshaft....again,meshing the two starter gears and special flywheels with each other ...the engine not connected to the driveshaft is the reversed one.... Thanks alot Fritz..like I need more stuff to get hung up on.....
Can one of you guys explain some of these approaches,please? Smokin' Joe? ModernBeat? 60's Style? RaceFab? I got my Big Chief tablet & #2 pencil out....
[ QUOTE ] Ah come on.....You meen to tell me out of all the guys on here not one of ya has an idea????????? [/ QUOTE ] ignore a mechanical drive, think hydrotastic....... (No I'm not joking.....) Cheers, Drewfus
Twin engined dragsters that had the engines front to back coupled them with chains sometimes, couplers others and ran through one gear box. Ivo's side by side as was already mentioned hooked up at the ring gears and one motor had reverse rotation. The show boat ran two motors facing forward and drove the rear wheels through each other and the other two motors faced backwards running the front wheels. When I talked to Ivo about the multi engine cars he told me the stronger motor pulled the weaker one along. At one point he had a injected motor and a blown motor in the same car. They each made their power at different rpms so the thought was that the one engine would get the car off the line and the other would come in on the top end. Groovy stuff for sure.
I've never even SEEN a twin in the flesh... BUT, thinking about it I don't see a major problem. Remember...these are just the musings of a dangerous mind... Reverse rotation engines and gear case adapters are WAY too expensive to have fun, so I'd use junkyard parts without custom machining if at all possible...wherever possible. Your not gonna do it without SOME machineshop time though. I think the first step I'd make would be to connect both engines (side by side) to each other by use of a front and rear motorplate. This rigid unit could then be rubber mounted to the frame as an ***embly. No independent movement of the engines to mess up alignment etc... Now, driving the single trans... Perhaps a shaft could be run lengthwise from the front to the rear engineplate and beyond, between the engines and matching the crankshaft alignment of both. It could extend past the rear plate to allow for two 4x4 Transfercase chains to drive the center shaft from both engines. Custom machining would thus be limited to the center shaft,the 2 required crankdrive spud shafts and stock 4x4 drive sprockets and chains could be used. Drive chain tension requirements would be used to locate the centershaft height and engine separation. The powerplant is done. Now its time for a choice... The end of the center shaft could be machined to take a U-joint yoke and an actual driveshaft could power a divorced transmission mounted to the rails further back or even a transaxle unit...IF a strong enough one were available. If the trans were to mount directly to the engine ***embly, a full chain case would need to be fabricated with consideration given to proper transmission alignment. Perhaps during chaincase construction a dummy transmission case could be fitted to an alignment shaft that takes the place of the actual centershaft between the engines. Doing it that way would keep alignment close without expensive machining of large parts, EG: the actual chaincase itself. I'd let a direct mounted trans just hang from the chaincase or else run a mount back from the two floating engineplates. Too much torque to mount it to the rails at the output...I think you'd be asking for trouble. Lots of stuff left to consider naturally, but this might get some juices flowing! Workable?
Tim Engler does custom gearboxes for multiengine tractors. I think he pioneered the transverse multiengine setup. No idea on the price. http://www.englermachine.com/
One of my favorite model kits, Jo-han's "HAULIN HE****", featured two independent fuel-injected Hemi's ...the rear engine powering the rear wheels is easy enough,but the front engine, unconnected to the other in any way, powers the front wheels...4 wheel drive it says.....is there something else to this concept? I realize I'm referring to a model kit in this case,and there have been several releases of the H.He****,but I'm ***uming this was a built vehicle? (I guess I missed this one,but I did get all hung up on the Hot Wheels "SPLITTIN IMAGE").....I always wondered why the headers exited in FRONT of the HH's front wheels until I actually got one.... I'm a kook....enlighten me on this ? Oh yeah,if the two engines are unmeshed,what keeps them synchronized? If nothing else, neat kit.....
Ivo's twin dragster had two ring gears pressed onto each engines flywheel. Thompson's twin engine four wheel drive dragster had one engine powering the front wheels and the other the rear wheels. He found that traction was improved by connecting the engines so that all 4 wheels were driven by both engines. The chain couplers mentioned were double row roller chains. The front part of the double row chain wrapped around a sprocket on the rear of the front engine. The rear part of the double row chain wrapped around a sprocket on the front of the rear engine. There have been multi-engine cars built that ran multiple differentials in the same axle. Reason I say 'multi-engine' cars is that a triple engine 55 Chevy was built that ran three diffs in the rear axle. Two engines in the back and one engine in the normal underhood location.
I doubt if it's been done,but I think it would be possible to use a pair of manuaal Fiero transaxles, to make a transverse twin engine design. The factory axles are longer on the drivers side,because the output on the transmission is off center. So if a second transaxle,rotated 180 degrees,was installed behind the first,you could bolt together the inboard CV flanges,and use stock p***. side axles on both sides.The front motor mounts ahead of the rear axle centerline,and points to the right,just like stock.The rear motor,mounts behind the rear axle centerline,and points to the left.The rear motor would have to be reverse rotation. Caddy Norstar motors will bolt to Fiero transaxles,or you can buy adapters to use SBC. Or if you wanted something even more unusual,how about a single seater roadster; driver in the usual position,multiple transverse engines on the p*** side, driving through Engler style gear boxes to a racing automatic. It would look wild,but those gear boxes have got to be expensive. Some of the Bonneville guys are using large Gilmer belts to create offset drivelines, so that is another option.
i don't know much about them but here's how Dode Martin of dragmaster did them on two thing in 1960. he's building a replica for the nhra museum and i got a couple pics at his house last time i was out there. b***icly he's running two small block chevy's, one with reverse rotation and meshing them through the flywheels. power is applied to the rear by an in and out box, b***icly a direct drive 1 speed. he's also making his own rear end with just one big axle solid mounted to the frame with sprintcar style birdcages/floating bearings. he said that's how he did it on the origional too. i'm sure there's a better way to do it with todays technology but thats how they used to do it.
One of the notable features of this thread is that Wasasedan and **** both got to speak to the guys involved in two cases.... Now that I'm thinking about it...AutoramaBob- couldya ask Bob Larrivee Sr. about any anecdotes and experiences he had while showing the Mysterion with Roth? Did it get fired up much during exhibition? Did he see it running both engines at once? Fritz...sorry about the hijack on yer thread,smart guy....I'm looking at this subject with the eyes of the 10 year old that first saw the cars in mags and flipped out...good thing the responses are written with the adult in mind!
More fuel to your fire. Eddie Hill's early day's had a twin engine rail powerd by Pontiac's! Anyone have the old Hot Rod article's?
[ QUOTE ] Now that I'm thinking about it...AutoramaBob- couldya ask Bob Larrivee Sr. about any anecdotes and experiences he had while showing the Mysterion with Roth? Did it get fired up much during exhibition? Did he see it running both engines at once? [/ QUOTE ] from what i've read the Mysterion was only a runner up till right after the very first show it went to. then the frame started to break in two. to reduce weight and hopefully keep the frame from breaking again the motors were GUTTED. it was never realy intended as a driver anyway. but it sure woulda been cool if it had been a driver. unfortunatly this did not help the frame problem and it continued to break and be repaired till it was finaly s****ed out. and that boys and girls was the END of the Mysterion..... or was it!?!?!?!?!?
Y'all got me to thinking about this again... I was trying to figger out a way to put 2 Mopar slant 6's side by side, both leaning in opposite directions, in essence giving you a V12, and shove them into the slingshot. I was hung up on power transfer also...
HHHmmmmmm Digger 2 slant 6 cyl's one facing one way the othe faceing the other way?!?!?!?! now you have really twisted my head. I guess ya could run a chain on the forword end of them (the back of one the front of the other) and just clip a trans onto one side stock style? that "WOULD" look cool as hell! FRITZ
this is a fun thread, the thought of filling a car with motors is just too cool seams one constant here is that all these setups use direct power transfer, arguably the most efficient way to go about it. maybe a little less efficient and potentialy needing more parts and space but, how about multiple engines powering generators or hydrolic pumps you could run one motor and flip another on when you wanted more power, if that wasn't enough you could turn on another and another and another? or actually slice and dice blocks and cranks to create one big motor, you could take the front six cylinders of something like a 454, the middle four from another and the rear six from a third motor and weld them all together for a 1000 ci sixteen cylinder unit. Paul
Hey Johnny here's a pic of one of Tommy Ivo's rides.. It's not 2 engines but 4 Nailheads....Looks cool..
Tommy Ivo was a sick man! That looks frickin' incredible!!! How was the clutch activated in that? dual clutches must have been used and you'd figure the load would be too much for single foot operation. Was it some kind of centrifugal setup with just a light initial load or? No transmissions either? With all that torque would you get away without one on the street? Maybe a 2 speed axle ***embly instead? Multiple engines sure look cool if done right!!!! Interesting stuff...
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