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Electrical problems back with a vengeance.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Kevin Lee, Mar 4, 2010.

  1. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,675

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    So for those of you not following you can see some of it here. previous problems

    But the condensed version is I have a recurring problem where the truck is suddenly dead or nearly dead. No warning here – I might stop for coffee in the morning and come out to find it dead. Fine during lunch and when I jump in to head home... dead. I might get a month or two or sometimes a week.

    The last two times this happened I pulled the battery to have it tested. Both times it was labeled "bad" and I was able to get a new one under warranty. Not sure if I can get another that way.

    As best I can remember here is what I have done and tested each time.

    1) Dead with no warning. Battery on charger overnight and fine. Lasted a week or so.

    2) Dead no warning. find out I may have wrong regulator so swap to mid 60's Ford part. 12v at idle and "around 15v" at cruising rpm. Fine for around two months so I'm convinced it is fixed.

    3) Dead in parking lot. Meter shows 12v at battery but Have battery tested to be sure. "Bad" so I ***ume it was fried from wrong reg in beginning. Warranty and go.

    4) One slow start so I saw it coming... get home and dead. New battery (warranty) and buy reg from LMC truck thinking this has to be correct. Also rewire gen to reg double checking as I go.

    Test for bad ground with one lead on neg battery post and one on regulator base. No draw whatsoever with engine at cruising rpm.

    Add multiple grounds to be sure – wires all overthedamnplace: Gen to engine, gen to reg base, engine to frame, battery to frame, etc.

    12v at idle and dead on 14v at cruising rpm.

    Stop for coffee this morning. Dead. Bump start and go home. grrRR... click. So I am at a complete loss.

    Right now, I am going out to swap the starter and hop these batteries have been being labeled bad by the parts store in hopes of me buying a new one.
     
  2. NoSurf
    Joined: Jul 26, 2002
    Posts: 4,843

    NoSurf
    Member

    Check the grounds.
     
  3. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,675

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

  4. make sure the cables are good. No hidden rot under the covering. Check ALL grounds. Use braided strap for grounds. Body to frame. Frame to motor. Motor to body.
    Check for any constant draw.
     
  5. brad chevy
    Joined: Nov 22, 2009
    Posts: 2,627

    brad chevy
    Member

    sounds like its overcharging and frying batteries,have you had generator checked?HAVE someone check sytem with meter to be sure,you can"t just keep changing battery,sooner or later you"re going to fry something else.good luck,you could have bare wires touching out of site just not all the time.
     
  6. bobss396
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 18,739

    bobss396
    Member

    Changing out batteries is a crutch, it gets you so far. Have you had a charging system check done under load?

    The old timer check for a drain somewhere was to undo the battery ground, strike it against (best done in the dark) and strike the terminal back to the post. If you got a spark, you had a drain somewhere. Pulling one fuse at a time, repeating the test always worked for me. You can do the same thing with a test light or meter.

    Testing the battery by itself does nothing for you.

    Bob
     
  7. Gotgas
    Joined: Jul 22, 2004
    Posts: 7,251

    Gotgas
    Member
    from DFW USA

    I'm guessing you have tried a lot of the common fixes such as grounds and voltage regulator, etc. Here's one that is a little different.

    Does the battery have a good hold-down? I've seen cars that had batteries move around under braking/acceleration and short the battery out on the bodywork. Maybe this is happening and you are able to continue driving around because the car's electrical system is running off the alternator. Just a thought.
     
  8. RodStRace
    Joined: Dec 7, 2007
    Posts: 8,769

    RodStRace
    Member

    Okay the way I read it, you have multiple batteries and regulators, a charging system that shows good voltage and an intermittent drain that kills batteries.
    You did not mention if the battery test was performed by newbie at vatozone, so we will ***ume the testing was correct. (You do know that a battery MUST be fully charged to test?)

    Generator systems can and will draw with the key off. Some circuit in the regulator that cuts the connection. I doubt many would fail the same way, but read up and check that. There can be another intermittent drain. A common one is the brake pedal droops enough to close the switch. As mentioned, a master battery kill switch will isolate the battery when the vehicle is off, and is a good anti-theft device. However, that can be a h***le and doesn't fix the problem. Trouble is, you gotta catch it in the act to find and fix it.
    Generators can drain and charge too, so pulling it and having a good rebuild shop test it will take another possible culprit off the list.
    Good luck, intermittent electrical problems are not fun or easy. I made a lot of money and gray hair from them....
     
  9. msandersonrr
    Joined: Mar 3, 2010
    Posts: 1

    msandersonrr
    Member
    from Elma, WA

    I've never worked on a car with a generator, but here are some good tips.
    Check grounds-Put your multimeter on continuity test from the end of all the grounds back to the frame or battery ground. No continuity bad ground.
    Check current draw- Put multimeter in 10 amp mode disconnect on terminal from battery. Put one lead on battery and one lead on terminal. If you have a draw start pulling fuses until it goes away.
    I ***ume there is a voltage regulator?
    As you increase RPMs your voltage should go up, generator is fine, it should stop at 13.8V =/- .5V. If it goes higher than you have a bad voltage regulator and it is frying your battery.
     
  10. 1950ChevySuburban
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 6,185

    1950ChevySuburban
    Member Emeritus
    from Tucson AZ

    You using Optimas, wet cells, or tried both?
    Generators charge differently than alts, maybe dry cell batts aren't the best answer.
     
  11. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,675

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Just got back from swapping the starter to ease my mind.

    Grounds have been checked and rechecked half a dozen times over. No drain that I can find – absolutely nothing shows at the negative post. Generator was rebuilt by Hunt Electric here in Kansas City when I first started this build in November. Had it rechecked the first time I went dead. (forgot to add those details in my list.) I have spent a lot of money there so I sure hope the rebuild was done correctly. (I did the rebuild and 12v conversion myself last time around.)

    I hate to do it but I am nearly to the point of dropping it off at a shop to diagnose.

    I know this is easy stuff that I should be able to diagnose. I just can't find anything wrong.
     
  12. el Scotto
    Joined: Mar 3, 2004
    Posts: 4,722

    el Scotto
    Member
    from Tracy, CA

    What about the cables themselves? Are they new?
     
  13. 53sled
    Joined: Jul 5, 2005
    Posts: 5,817

    53sled
    Member
    from KCMO

    I had a car with gremlins such as this, once the brake light switch was out of adjustment and the lights stayed on all the time, and then the starter solenoid failed internally and leaked power, just enough to drain, not enough to engage. Many hours with an ohm meter later, it lasted another 2 years.
     
  14. CAL
    Joined: May 5, 2005
    Posts: 396

    CAL
    Member
    from Neosho Mo.

    I've got a rebuilt 12 volt generator, (1946) off my A. Local ford tractor guru rebuilt it. It's just been sitting on the shelf over 2 years. If you want to try it, let me know, I'll send it your way.
     
  15. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 22,682

    alchemy
    Member

    Since you have checked over everything multiple times, it is time to start replacing items. Either do it one part at a time to find out what the culprit was, or do them all and never know.

    Start with the cheapest part (or borrow a part to test).

    battery cables
    solenoid
    voltage regulator
    amp gauge
    horn relay
    headlight switch
    brake light switch
    ignition switch
    generator
    starter
    battery
    ground straps
    individual wires
    turn signal switch (if any)
    fuse block
    bulb sockets

    Do you use dielectric grease on all connections and sockets? Helps prevent corrosion. But that would actually be a case of no juice flowing, and it sounds like you have a case of too much juice flowing.
     
  16. duste01
    Joined: Nov 5, 2006
    Posts: 1,209

    duste01
    Member

    thats what I'm thinking too. You might be cooking it.
     
  17. duste01
    Joined: Nov 5, 2006
    Posts: 1,209

    duste01
    Member

    regulator might not be kicking off. Sounds like the problem never went away.
     
  18. oldskooloutlaw
    Joined: Dec 3, 2008
    Posts: 223

    oldskooloutlaw
    Member
    from Tulsa

    What I have done to find phantom electrical drain is to start with the basic's which is simple and free. remove all the fuses and let the car sit for time enough that the battery would lose charge, then add the fuses one at a time and then you can rule out each circuit. If you don't find the drain in the fused circuits then start disconnecting power to the generator, starter etc, it's a slow process but you will find the problem, just don't overlook anything that has wires. Hope this will help with your woogies.
     
  19. bobss396
    Joined: Aug 27, 2008
    Posts: 18,739

    bobss396
    Member

    A simple VAT tester will tell all. An overcharging condition usually drinks the water out of the battery and it should sulfate enough to cause a stink or a bulged battery case. I like to see cars charging at bewteen 13.5 and 14.1 volts.

    Bob
     
  20. terd ferguson
    Joined: Jun 13, 2008
    Posts: 3,734

    terd ferguson
    Member

    This is probably not your problem, but this happened to me once. I had a '71 Scout II with a 345 V8. I had the same kind of intermittent battery problems. After nearly pulling my hair out for two weeks, I found the problem. For some odd reason, someone had cut the wire going from battery to starter and fixed it with a **** connector then wrapped it back up like factory. The wires were almost coming out of the connector and if it wiggled just the right way, no starting.

    The reason I posted this story is to let you know I figured out the problem by checking each wire one by one very closely. Not just a once over glance. Sometimes it's easy to overlook a simple problem. Check your grounds. Pull them off and make sure there's bare metal. Make sure no wires are getting pinched. Make sure there's no bare spots, all it takes is a tiny bare spot shorting to ground.

    Good luck and keep us posted!
     
  21. ^^^This sounds to be the most likely from the symptoms you describe.^^^

    When you "bumpstart" you are able to drive home, which means that the charging system is delivering voltage.

    When you get home and immediately try to start the engine again, it is already dead.

    When you get the battery tested, it is determined to be "bad".

    A battery should be fully charged to be tested. (No mention of whether you charged it to test it.)

    Have you checked the water in the batteries after they have died?

    If your charging system is overcharging the batteries, it could certainly be vaporizing the water in the cells.

    If the batteries are drying up, then it would point to the voltage regulator as the most likely culprit.

    I have seen these be bad right out of the box.

    Some of the older styles are adjustable and you may just need to get yours checked.

    Good luck and keep us posted!
     
  22. fordf1trucknut
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 1,181

    fordf1trucknut
    Member

    I had similar problems in the past with a truck. In that case it was a bad ground from the regulator to the inner fender (and actually the ground to the inner fender wasn't the greatest also) roughed up the paint under the regulator bolt holes AND added a ground strap to the inner fender and the problem went away.
     
  23. Fenders
    Joined: Sep 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,921

    Fenders
    Member

    Why's he running a generator anyway? What's the car, and the engine/
    Sometimes TRAD = NFG.
     
  24. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 22,682

    alchemy
    Member


    Yeah, this guy really belongs on this board.
     
  25. Ryan
    Joined: Jan 2, 1995
    Posts: 22,830

    Ryan
    ADMINISTRATOR
    Staff Member

    HAHAHA... Dude... you might need to find another message board.

    Why's he running a generator? If you gotta ask...
     
  26. SinisterCustom
    Joined: Feb 18, 2004
    Posts: 8,277

    SinisterCustom
    Member

    Kevin...I'm sure you've done this, but the battery, does anything else work? Just not engaging the starter?
    I've seen guys swap out batteries (and other parts) time and time again when the real problem is simply the wiring....
     
  27. NoSurf
    Joined: Jul 26, 2002
    Posts: 4,843

    NoSurf
    Member

    :rolleyes:

    flathead ford powered:

    [​IMG]
     
  28. tommy
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 14,756

    tommy
    Member Emeritus

    If you wired it with a ammeter like the factory did you should be able to see any draws in the ammeter gauge. I've had intermittent draws like sticky brake pedals, a dome light left on and the lights left on. It always shows as a discharge in the ammeter when you shut it off. I always check the gauge before getting out after I've turned it off. It has saved my day many times.

    If it is a sudden intermittent event like you say with no warning then I tend to think it is a draw draining the battery. The ammeter will show that the generator is charging. Even if the generator or regulator quit it should not kill the battery in the short period of time that you describe. Keeping an eye on the ammeter will let you know that it needs attention before it dies all together.

    I had the same problem with the earlier 3 brush generator that used a cut out and not a VR. The cut out would stick and drain the battery. I started to park it on hills so that a I could jump start it in gear and drive it home when it would happen. The generator would charge. The cut out just drained it soon after it was shut off. Your system is different but the sudden battery draining seems to be the same. I can relate to your frustration.

    Do you have an ammeter? If so where is the power to feed the car picked up?
     
  29. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,675

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Okay, I may not be explaining the symptoms correctly.

    Twice now when the truck has died I have put a multimeter on the battery. It shows a full 12V... but tests bad at the parts store. They are doing a full charge and load test there. Two different stores with same results. It is dead in the driveway but showing a full 12V right now. But I bet if I take to test it will show as bad. At least that is consistent?

    So saying I have a drain makes no sense to me? There is no needle movement with the engine off and the meter between the negative post and wire.

    So far I have replaced the regulator twice, the battery twice, and today I have replaced the starter with no change in results. I have checked grounds every time. I have jumped the solenoid with no different results. (forgot to add that earlier too)

    going through alchemy's list I feel like I have replaced every crucial part.

    This would be much easier if the battery checked out good.
     
  30. JAWS
    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,848

    JAWS
    Member

    What kind of battery?
     

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