I am planning a juice brake conversion on the 32 in the future. Maybe a next winter project. My question is... is there a master cylinder that works with the original brake pedal? I thought I saw a bolt-in one that works with the original pedal but cannot find it anywhere. I am guessing I need to relocate the battery as well. I did a search but did not find a tech article specifically for a 32. I want to keep it stock looking from inside the p***enger comparment. Let me know! Thanks. Vinnie
I don't see it listed on Vern Tardel's site, but moon eyes seems to carry it. http://www.mooneyesusa.com/vern-tardels-ford-brakes-booklet-p-2068.html
Anyone ever use these guys? Not much of a website... really no details on what their kits include or pricing.
You need to contact Richard Lacy at www.earlyv8garage.com to discuss your particular project. He's a great guy with years of experience and a great product. He can give you a quote after he knows what you need.
Vinnie, Richard Lacy is the most knowledgeable person I know on early Ford brakes. He is so good someone tried to nominate him for sainthood on fordbarn, see http://www.fordbarn.com/earlyv8/forum03/messages3/5302498.html. Go to fordbarn and search on his name and you will find a ton of data that he has posted to help people out. I designed and built a master cylinder bracket for my '32 about 30 years ago (still have the car) but I would ever do it again with Richards mount available. He doesn't require moving the battery where my conversion did. Another thing to consider is using silicone brake fluid. I used it on mine and like it. Many others, including Richard Lacy, don't like it. Charlie Stephens
Let’s start with a few ***umptions. First you have decided that you want/need hydraulic brakes. Depending on what you are going to do with the car mechanical brakes may be fine and actually in some cases better (you are not going to drive the car for long periods of time, you intend to enter shows etc). Some people will tell you “just put on floaters and everything will be fine”. Now let’s proceed with the ***umption that you have made the decision to convert to hydraulic brakes.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o> <o> </o> First you need the type of system you want. Disc brakes stop the best but I don’t think they look like they belong on a traditional car. If you are building a hot rod they may be an option. Later Ford truck brakes work well but you cannot run the early Ford type wire wheels without dangerously thick adapters. The Lincoln Bendix type brakes (original or reproduction) are an excellent choice but expensive (Richard Lacy at earlyv8@aol.com, (626) 338-2282 is the expert on these). You might want to price these out before making your final decision. I always hear stories about other unusual brakes being used but I believe brakes are not a place to get creative. The system I am going to discuss is the ’39 to ’48 Ford type brakes.<o></o> <o> </o> The ’39 to ’48 Ford brakes are probably the most commonly used when converting the early Fords to hydraulic brakes. The ’39 drums are a 5 on 10 ¼ bolt pattern (the wide five) so the ’39 drums are not used but the ’39 backing plates and hardware can be used with the later drums and hubs. The ’40 to ’48 hubs are a 5 on 5 ½ bolt pattern and the ’32 wire wheels will bolt on using an adapter ring to ***ure they seat properly (see http://mtcarproducts.com/fordwirewheelsup.html for an illustration of why this ring is necessary). Without the rings the wheels may eventually crack. Don’t leave home without them.<o></o> <o> </o> The best place to start is by going to a local junk yard and finding a 1940-48 Ford that you can remove the brake parts from. Since this is not 1955, let’s try plan B. Advertise in the newsletters of local car club magazines and hope to find the parts under someone’s bench. Attend swap meets. Ideal case would be to find parts someone removed recently from their car either to upgrade or go back to mechanical. Carry a metal rod that is 12.045 long. If you can get it into the drum p*** on it unless it has just been turned and then check it to be sure it is less than 12.060. Be sure to get all of the parts attached to the backing plates as individual parts are frequently hard to find. I used to be able to get close enough with a steel tape measure in a pinch (I used to works as a machinist and had pretty good eyes when I was younger). New drums are available (pay more and buy the ones made in USA) but require a machine shop for installation on the hubs (unless you have a very well equipped garage). The front wheel bearing races are replaceable but you need to find rear hubs with a good bearing surface as this is part of the hub.<o></o> <o> </o> The first thing you should do is rebuild the backing plates and drums. Obviously clean/paint and replace worn or broken parts. Have the drums turned and the shoes relined and arced to match the drums. Expect to have difficulty locating someone to arc the shoes to the drums but don’t skip this step. Between the EPA and OSHA it is difficult and expensive to retrofit the old brake machines to avoid getting too much dust into the air (or your lungs). Most people just decided to get out of the business instead of upgrading their equipment since most cars have disc brakes and the arcing is not required because of their design. You may need to send the shoes back to the place that relined them along with the diameter of your drums. New or relined wheel cylinders will probably be needed. If you are lucky you may be able to rebuild the ones you have. If you buy new wheel cylinders or rebuild kits, try to stick to American made as there has been a lot of bad press about foreign made brake parts. Re***emble with new springs if possible. Replace all of the grease seals. Inspect the bearings and replace if necessary but remember that old, used bearings may be better than new foreign made bearings. Gather up all of the small parts you will need for the conversion (see parts list at end). Note that all of this can be done before you remove and of the mechanical brake parts from your car (and thus you can continue to drive your car). One exception is that you might be able to use the front wheel bearings from the mechanical brakes in your hydraulic brake drums if they are in better condition. The rear wheel bearings are larger for the mechanical brakes and cannot be used with the hydraulic brake drums. When I remove the mechanical brake parts from the car I like to put them under the bench in case I or the next owner decides to restore the car. <o></o> <o> </o> In order to install the hydraulic brakes on the front ’32 spindles you will need an adapter kit that is available from most suppliers for about $30. This kit consists for two pieces for each side. The first piece looks like a piston ring. The large hole (approx 4 inch) in the center of the backing plate is about ¼ inch larger in diameter on the hydraulic backing plates compared to the mechanical backing plates. This ring takes up the space and centers the plate on the spindle. The second piece is a spacer that relocates the inner front wheel bearing out about 3/8 inch towards the end of the spindle. The four bolt holes in the backing plate will need to be enlarged with a file and hack saw to allow for the bolt pattern for the four backing plate bolts being in a slightly larger pattern on the hydraulic backing plates. Some people recommend plugging and drilling the four holes but there are a lot of cars running around with elongated holes. You can buy the backing plates with the holes welded and relocated from Cling’s (clingsaftermarket.com, (480) 777-1202). This is exactly the same as converting a Model A front axle to hydraulic brakes. For the Model A go to http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124112. Remember when you get to the rear you will not have the interference problem with the shock mount that you have on the Model A. You can also read about the Model A conversion in the booklet from Cling’s (https://www.clingsaftermarket.com/addtocart.asp?prod=42) but it is so straightforward I would suggest you just grab a wrench and dive in. <o></o> <o> </o> The rear brakes are a straight bolt on. Be sure to use the best puller you can get to remove the hubs from the axles. I like the reproduction KR Wilson puller from Winfield Tool Works ((631) 928-3316). It is expensive but less than the cost of replacing an axle. There are no clearance problems with the brake lines and the rear shock mounts like there are on the Model A. Be sure to check the bottom side of your axle housings for wear. The housings can be machined and sleeves added to correct the problem. If the drums rub on the backing plates, it will be necessary to machine a small amount off of the lip of the drum or use axle shims.<o></o> <o> </o> The next thing is to mount the master cylinder. I like the master cylinder mount from Richard Lacy (626) 338-2282, earlyv8@aol.com. At this point I must admit that I haven’t looked recently at what is available on the market. Most of the mounts available from street rod shops require relocating the battery and welding brackets to the frame but Richard Lacy’s does not. Be sure to consider these features if you look around for master cylinder mounts. I installed my hydraulic brakes 25 years ago. I don’t know if his mount was available at that time but if it was I didn’t know about it. First I relocated the battery to the right hand side of the ch***is behind the K member and adjacent to the frame. For the master cylinder mount I bolted a plate to the original K member using existing holes and welded a piece of 1/8 inch wall, approx 14 inch long, 4 inch square structural tubing to the plate extending towards the back of the car. I welded a plate inside of the tube to mount the master cylinder and added to bearings to hold a shaft for the levers that go to the original mechanical brake rod and to the master cylinder. I measured a ‘39 to ’48 master cylinder pedal ***embly to determine the length of the levers. I cut a hole in the top side of the tubing to fill the master cylinder through the hole in the wood floor that was originally used to maintain the battery. <o></o> <o> </o> Next study the brake line routing and fittings used on a ’39 to ’48 Ford. I would just copy this design using the same fittings and ¼ inch brake lines (be sure to note the nifty bracket that mounts between the rear wishbones, I am not sure when this bracket started to be used but I know it was used in the later cars). This way you can just buy standard fittings and hoses. If you start changing things one thing will lead to another. You can buy the preformed brake lines from Richard Lacy or go to the local auto parts store and buy standard lengths. Note that there is a special tool for bending brake lines and not collapsing them. Use steel lines that were intended for automotive brakes and do not under any cir***stances use copper brake lines. With a little planning you can use standard length lines with a minimum of cutting and flaring. I would suggest you have someone that is experienced double flare the tubing if you cut the standard lines. Make sure all lines are securely attached to the frame. Check for clearance between brake lines and hoses and any moving suspension parts. Make sure lines are located so that they will not be damaged by using a floor jack, running over objects in the road or extending the suspension/steering to the all positions.<o></o> <o> </o> What type of brake fluid? I like silicon but admit it has it disadvantages. It leaks in places that regular brake fluid will not leak and it easily retains air bubbles (do not shake and pour slowly). You need to run a special brake light switch that is compatible with the fluid (Harley Davidson or from Ron Francis Wire Works, (800) 292-1940, wire-works.com). On the plus side it doesn’t eat paint and doesn’t attract water. Check out the archives as there are a lot of posts on this subject. This topic is like religion and politics in the number of people with an opinion.<o></o> <o> </o> As a final thought add retaining clips or safety hubs to retain the rear brake hub/drum/wheel ***embly in case of an axle failure. These are good insurance that can be added at a reasonable price to the car after hydraulic brakes have been installed (http://www.speedwaymotors.com). Unfortunately these are not available off the shelf for the mechanical brakes.<o></o> <o> </o> Good sources for hard to find parts are: Richard Lacy at earlyv8@aol.com, (626) 338-2282, Dennis Cling at clingsaftermarket.com, (480) 777-1202 or Dave Wilton at mtcarproducts.com, (530) 872-0122<o></o> <o> </o> See http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/brakeadj.html for the adjustment of hydraulic brakes.<o></o> <o> </o> Parts/services:<o></o> 4 complete ’40-’48 backing plates and drum ***emblies<o></o> new drums plus installation if required<o></o> reline brake shoes<o></o> grease seals<o></o> arc new shoes to drums<o></o> new (or sleeved) wheel cylinders<o></o> new (or sleeved) master cylinder<o></o> master cylinder push rod/clevis pin & cotter key<o></o> new brake return springs<o></o> wheel bearings (used originals may be better than repros)<o></o> turn drums (12.060 max dia)<o></o> brake lines (pre bent from Richard Lacy or auto parts store)<o></o> brake line to frame clips<o></o> bracket to mount rear brake line fitting between wish bones<o></o> brake fittings & crush washers<o></o> brake hoses (2 front plus 1 rear)<o></o> master cylinder mount (Richard Lacy at earlyv8@aol.com)<o></o> brake light switch ((800) 292-1940, wire-works.com if silicon)<o></o> brake fluid (silicon?)<o></o> adapters for front brakes (about $30)<o></o> axle shims to space drums outboard if required (or machine drums)<o></o> adapters to use early wire wheels<o></o> safety clips (or safety hubs) to retain rear wheels in case of axle failure<o></o> <o> </o> <o> </o> Good luck,<o></o> Charlie Stephens
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