Projects Track Roadster 16 yrs in the making

41 Dave, cactus1 and LB+1 thanks guys...now for some good news:

I just got off the phone with Jack (Mon morning March 22) and the EFI lives!

After making two completely different custom thickness intake gaskets the two Hilborn fuel injection assemblies are secured to the two banks (cylinder heads) and are not binding. Hooray. Basically Jack built up gaskets with thin composite material that was bonded with RTV silicone rubber cement. The layers varied form one to four layers depending on the bow and warp in the Hilborn base plates (one for each bank).

Jack started the engine but noticed major fluctuations in the fuel pressure. It turns out that the foam in the fuel cell doesn’t drain the gas back to the bottom of the fuel tank very fast and the fuel system was starving out; as most of you know an EFI system commonly has a recirculationg fuel system whereby the gasoline is constantly being circulated from the tank to the fuel rails and back to the gas tank 100% of the time. All he had to do as add a couple of gallons of gas.

With the mechanicals finally working properly the engine will now start cold or hot, and run on the EFI controller. The engine will idle at full running temp. All the fuel difficulties and horsing around damaged the spark plugs so there is some miss and barking through the exhaust.

Once new spark plugs and a fancy set of ignition wires is installed Jack will be able to run the tune-up procedure at progressive RPM settings based on the values of the oxygen sensor. This will set the air/fuel mixture values precisely.

More good news, once Jack eliminated the vacuum line to the heater valve from the EFI vacuum plenum there is now sufficient vacuum pressure to signal the EFI controller. It seems that we have kicked Murphy in the balls and he has left the building…we’ll see.

The front torsion bars were swapped for the next size down to soften the spring rate. Now that the road from Jack’s house down the hill has been graded and graveled he can trailer the TR to the highway and test it on some paved roads. As soon as the EFI is adjusted properly he will be driving the roadster around the Missoula MT vicinity (I hope).

The 9 inches of snow that fell in Kansas City is melting and things are beginning to look much more positive; I hesitate to say we’re out of the woods...but I am MUCH more hopeful than I was a week ago.

More soon

 

Charlie,
I haven't been keeping up with your build lately but now see that you are attempting to put on a converted Hilborn injection system on. I have a electronic Hilborn set up on my little 4 banger and a couple of suggestions.
Throttle shafts: Hilborn injectors typically have a single, solid shaft to all of the butterflys, this assumes that the mounting surface of the head is going to be flat and that when the engine heats up both the head and your injectors will remain flat. In real life this usually doesn't happen. My suggestion is to cut the throttle shafts between each butterfly and install either a small flex joint or Kinsler has these really neat adjustable connectors that allows you to set each of the butterflys individually. I went the flex joint solution and bought them from McMaster and Carr. What happen to me was that when I would start the car it would idle nicely at 750-800 rpm but as the engine heated up the idle would go to 1500 rpm. Once I installed the flex joints I could set each butterfly individually and now it idles great.

"Vaccum lines from each butterfly": These lines are not to measure vaccum but they are to provide a signal to the MAP (Manifold Air Pressure) sensor that is in your ECU. You want it to be connected to all of the butterflys as this give the MAP sensor a good average of all of the cylinders.

Fuel pressure: You need a full time installed pressure gage on the fuel pressure regulator. You need to be able to monitor the fuel pressure. You can make some changes in fuel delivery by changing the fuel pressure but I like to stay around 45 psi and never vary more than 5 psi for tunning changes.

Fuel filter: You also need a 10 micron filter between the fuel pump and the regulator. If you don't you WILL plug the injectors and then it really runs shitty! (personnal experience) If you decide to put a filter infron the the fuel pump, suction side, make sure that it is the very biggest one you can find and don't go anything finer than a 40 micron but you still need the 10 micron before the fuel regulator.
Good luck!


Rex

 

Charlie- Hope to see you on the street here in KC soon.

 

Rex,

Thanks a bunch. Part of what you suggest we have done; but not the connectors for the throttle shafts; I'll check on the porosity of the fuel filters (pre filter and filter) but I think we have that covered.

I appreciate your hard earned knowledge and tips.

charlie

 

Charlie, Quite a great update on TR ! Will you be updating us on the top for the irons Jack built ? Also wondering if you had planned a tonneau cover for TR ? Looking for ward to more progress/drivcing on TR !

 

Thanks again Dave,

I do have some good close-ups of the top irons and fittings that I will post soon; I was kind of running out of gas there for a while. I think Jack's ideas will be useful to lots of roadster folks who want a top that allows good rear quarter visibility and also collapses for carrying in the trunk.

I have indeed thought of a tonneau cover. I like the look that's for sure, but I've heard that in the real world the covers flap around a lot at highway speeds. Maybe I should ask the HAMB community for feedback on tonneaus.

By the way, John made a big framed copy of one of the Walt James event photos for me...it came out great.

trakrodstr
aka charlie

 

Here are four of eight photos; 1-4.

 

Here are photos five (5) through eight (8); photos 1-4 are in the previous message.

The images show the hoops, fixtures, and headers for the canvas top. All the metal work was by Jack Presse. See page 17 in this thread for wide field views.

The first image (previous image) was taken from the passenger side looking toward the driver’s side from above, note the instrument panel in the lower right for orientation. The front header board is oak with a channel milled to receive the top of the windshield glass. At each end is a stainless steel bracket.

Photo 2 shows the passenger side hardware the view is from above. The windshield post (green) has a vertical pin that is received by a female coupling on the header bracket. A wingnut set screw clamps the pin.

Photo 3 shows a similar view the perspective is from below, note the windshield glass protruding into the channel.

Photo 4 shows a view of the passenger-side connecting rod/strap that runs from the front header board (not visible) rearward to the “forward” oak hoop; there is an identical strap on the driver’s side. The view is from the front toward the rear.

Photo 5 is a close-up of the bracket on the passenger-side “forward” oak hoop. The perspective is from the rear quarter panel toward the instrument panel.

Photo 6 shows the driver’s side connecting strap attaching to the inside of the stainless steel bracket on the “forward” oak hoop; the strap extends forward toward the windshield post, which is out of view. The driver’s side door is wide open and is visible in the background.

Photo 7 shows the passenger-side connecting strap in the “storage” position. It has been disconnected (rear attachment) from the oak bow and swung across the passenger compartment to stop against the header board.

Photo 8 shows a view similar to the previous photo, only from the opposite (driver’s) side. The windnut set screw for the header board is also visible. The curved panel in the lower right is the top of the instrument panel.

Once the two connecting straps are in the storage position the header can be released from the vertical pins and the assembly can be stored in the trunk or wherever. The header board will fit into a pocket sewn into the canvas top material; thus the header board and connecting straps can be “released” from the canvas top.

Next the two oak hoops can be collapsed toward the rear where the two bows will rest on a bump stop (see page 17 in this thread). The canvas top will “unsnap” from the oak bows and the sheet metal at the rear deck panel. In this manner the canvas top, header board and connecting straps can be stowed in the trunk. It is of course also possible to remove the oak bows for storage at home, but the bows will not fit (easily) in the trunk.

Pretty clever, right? Jack is an amazing craftsman. I had precisely nothing to do with this design. While the fixtures and bracket would have to be tailor made for other roadsters the basic idea could be translated to many hot rods.

 

Charlie, This post just show the craftsman that Jack is. He is very skilled and is the consumate craftsman ! Looking forward to seeing TR at the Father's Day Roadster show ! First cool one is on me. Tell John "Hi !" from me.

 

Love the made hard ware Jack has done! Those regular screws have got to go they
take away from the one off craftman ship!!

 

What kind of wash is going on the top hardware?

 

LB+1

I'm not sure there are many options for the counter sunk wood screws; I guess in the fifties there were fewer phillips head fasteners; the machine hex bolts can be button heads wth thin jam nuts, or maybe nylocs...the latter are kind of clunky.

I'm unsure what can be done to the stainless steel hardware. Will a chemical wash work? I don't know. Painting is not a good option. Any suggestions?

More good news from Jack the vacuum system for the EFI manifold absolute pressure signal is working well and the engine starts easily under hot and cold conditions. Once the new ignition wires are installed he can start "fine" tuning the EFI.

Stay tuned.

trakrodstr

 

Well Mr Leno chime in here - what kind of screw head was used on Duesenbergs - Mormon - Packard.
Fine stringed music instruments?

Wash - heat and gun blueing

 

Shall we call this "The Turn of the Screw"

 

Yeah...that's it the turn of the screw...I just hope I'm not on the receiving end. I'll chat with Jack about bluing as there are a number of gunsmiths in his area. Probably some phosphate or cadium bath would work. I'm getting kind of frazzled and don't have the enthusiasm to run down leads like I had months ago. I need to think of a reasonable temporary floor mat solution too. I'm going to make some floor mats myself once the Maserodi finally gets to KC. Until then I'll probably find something at the Home Depot. I won't be using carpet of any kind; but I have my eye on some old super heavy duty canvas.

I'm traveling so I'm going to make this short.

Stay in touch.

Trakrodstr

 

Early flathead screws had a broached slot and were used in applicatios like this, as was rivetting of solid pins. There was also a low/wide-head series of standard button-head screws with slots, and then later with philips heads that were used when holding wood like roof hoops and dashboards. Before Nylocs there were nuts with the thread squeezed in at one end to lock. You can peen

 

Jagrod

Thanks for the detailed info on fasteners. I would like to pick your brain a bit on this topic, but right now I'm on a work related trip to Europe; When I return to KC I'll try to restart this line of conversation.

More in a week or so.

trakrodstr

 

I haven't checked in on this car in quite a while... 14 pages later... very nice Charlie & Jack... very very nice indeed.

I thought the engineering and some very unique ideas, details and craftsmanship were top notch... until I saw the hokey looking parking brake.



Retro!!!

 

Decker

Thanks for the kind words. The parking brake is the most intricate item on the car and Jack and I are selling them to selected customers for a mere $10/pound plus shipping. You wanna order one?

It's been "interesting" lately. I didn't update the thread because all the news was bad. Big problems with the EFI and terrible weather in MT, which completely threw off our plans.

Without going on and on, there was a very hard to diagnose intermittent EFI nozzle; once Jack figured that out, he checked the other nozzles and it appears the other seven were "used" and in questionable shape. That began a search for new parts; the nozzles were for a early to mid 80s Ford V8 but the Ford part number had been superseded at least twice; each time the price shot up. I finally found some replacement stock at a reasonable price; but the new nozzles have a bit higher fuel delivery capacity.

Assuming the weather holds, Jack will take the TR on the road this week and see if he can tune the system with 8 new, but slightly different, injection nozzles...we'll see.

On one nice day a couple of weeks ago the car was driven on the highway and it steered, stopped and didn't misbehave except for the EFI; although the road test was not extensive.

I am pretty bummed right now as the last few months were unexpectedly disappointing and of course expensive. I missed out on a very convenient and cheap arrangement to get the roadster transported to SoCal. Oh well.

It needs to be emphasized that Jack had NOTHING, repeat NOTHING, to do with configuring the EFI system and converting the Hilborns; he inherited all this BS. Also the company that made the EFI computer, Simple Digital Systems, has been outstanding in their support; really helpful. The fault with the many, many problems associated with the EFI system is the responsibility of the guy who originally put it together.

Keep your fingers crossed; who knows ? maybe I'll post a more positive message before too long.

Thanks again for the high praise.

trakrodstr
aka charlie

 

Charlie, That would seem to sum up the last month or so that you have experienced. Hope that Jack will get TR up and running like a watch. As much time Jack has spent on TR it is about time something went smooth. Looking forward to nothing but good news from Montana.

 

Thanks Dave,

Your interest and follow through is great. Let's keep our collective fingers crossed.

More soon I hope.

charlie

 

I won't say I've got good news but perhaps it's fair to say there has been no bad news. The eight new injectors eliminated the intermittent miss and popping. The weather in Missoula is mild and sunny. Tomorrow May 16th Jack will take the TR down to the highway and do a road test under somewhat normal conditions. Also he will be able to subject the cooling system to a bit of a real world test too.

Presumably tuning the EFI computer will be more productive with a new more stable baseline in which all 8 injectors are operating the same. We'll see.

Being able to run the car at highway speeds should be informative and tell us if there are any hidden suspension or steering issues.

One of the HAMB EFI experts, Vergil, who has a cool thread has been giving Jack and I some advice and serving as a sounding board. He's a great guy and very knowledgeable. 41 Dave suggested that I contact Vergil...Thanks Dave. If you want to see an outstanding induction system for a flathead, check out the system Vergil designed.

I am still holding out hope that the TR might debut at the LA Roadster Show.

More soon.

trakrodstr
aka charlie

 

Charlie, That is great news ! By the way have you finalized the emblem for TR ? I forget, is it to be mounted on the cowl ? Whatever you do will be very clean and sharp.

 

HAMBers

I finally have some bone fide good news. There may be more glitches in store for us but we made a breakthrough. After the new injectors did not cure all the issues, we were running in circles and no improvement in engine performance was being made. Specifically, the motor would start easily and idle OK; however, at throttle tip-in from idle the engine popped through the intake stacks and bogged big time. Once in a while engine would die the bogging was so bad. Also the engine was running rich even though the values being used should have resulted in a lean condition.

Neither of us had any idea what to try next. We agreed that Jack should try the tech guy at Simple Digital Systems so he made a call. I asked Jack to have the SDS people suggest the name of their best installer just in case we had to take the car to a EFI shop.

Jack briefly outlined the symptoms and mentioned the the new correct injector nozzles were in place. During the conversation the tech guy asked Jack what the idle RPM setting was. Jack replied that it indicated around a 1000 but it seemed to him that the values on the EFI display were not correct and that the engine was actually idling slower, perhaps 700 RPM. Further Jack mentioned that the tach in the instrument panel was also reading too high based on his experience and listening to the engine at idle.

The tech guy says ”…hummmm….that’s weird.” He asked whether the two RPM values were similar and Jack told him it’s hard to say because the RPM numbers on the EFI display jump around so much. “Whoa” that’s a big clue came the reply from the tech guy. He then said: “I think there’s interference from the electronic tach; do you have a noise filter to wire into the circuit?”

Jack replied yes, and the SDS rep said OK, wire in the filter, test the engine and call me back. Jack jury-rigged a noise suppressor in the circuit and instantly the popping and bogging disappeared. Jack drove the roadster up and down his road and still no problems, even when the engine got up to full operating temp.

He called the SDS folks back and said that the noise suppressor had cured the popping and bogging problem instantly. Apparently, the electronic noise from the tach was causing the EFI to double fire each cycle, which caused a highly rich mixture. More importantly the engine management computer now had a valid RPM value — which is the single most important parameter for the system management. What a relief!

Jack said the engine doesn’t start easily right now, but he can go back and recalibrate all the engine management values ONE MORE time, and all should be well. I’ll believe it when I hear it; but we made big time progress yesterday. Hooray.

Now Jack can safely take the roadster out on the highway for a real-world road test. If new gremlins are uncovered I won’t be at the LA Roadster Show with the car. However, if the road test goes well, I will most likely make plans to get the TR and me to the Pomona Fair Grounds for the Father’s Day event. More soon, I hope.

I attached a photo of the EFI engine control computer made by SDS. The shot was taken early in the build and shows the module in the cowling area in front of the instrument panel. The SDS folks have provided outstanding customer support; I'm not an expert in which EFI computers are the best for specific applications, but if you want stand-up customer support, these folks deliver the goods.

http://www.sdsefi.com/

trakrodstr

 

Just a quick update.

Jack has re-calibrated the engine start-up values and the little Dodge Hemi starts fine. The weather has been lousy so he hasn't had a chance to go for a test drive on the highway.

I'm getting much more optimistic....

trakrodstr

 

Charlie, That is the news I know you are very happy to be passing on to the HAMB ! I can only hope that the test drives prove that TR is very good mannered. Do you have any idea if the EFI will improve you mileage. It would be wild if it did.

 

Dave, I'll let you know on the mileage once I drive the TR awhile. I'm guessing better than a carb especially on the highway where you can really dial in the air/fuel mixture.

The car was doing great last week and the weather was cooperating and then the seals in the clutch slave cylinder blew. Go figure, less than 20 miles on it. Jack ordered the part yanked the floor pan and tranny and has now replaced the cylinder... things seem to be OK. Of course now it's raining. I think next Tues, June 1st, I'll pull the trigger on trying for the LA Roadster show one way or the other. No predictions at this time.

I can't believe how long this is taking.

 

Charlie, Thanks so much for the good - no GREAT news ! Maybe TR is tired of all the puttering and wants to be SoCal Cruising. Hope you get the weather to do some test and tune on the EFI. Will be looking forward to more updates.

 

Boy every thing sound's much better!
How long has most of the T/R parts been
just siting around? As we all know siting up
can wear out most anything.

Jack your the man !!

 

LB+1,

Yea...things are looking up. Jack has "driven" the TR on his mile long dirt road up and down steep inclines and the engine does not hesitate, bog, miss, or pop. It idles fine either hot or cold.

The weather in western MT has been lousy, but eventually Jack can do a real highway test, calibrate the speedo, and the cruise control amplifier. Assuming there are no more gremlins or teething problems he stands ready to trailer the Maserodi to Salt Lake City where I will pick it up.

I will make an airline reservation for Salt Lake, hoping that things work out; the probability that I will be able to attend the LA Roadster Show is about 50:50.

The worst thing that can happen now is that Jack finds some glitches, I will eat a one-way ticket from KC to SLC and in a few weeks we meet somewhere between Missoula and KC so that I can take possession of the TR.

Thanks for your interest and kind words.


trakrodstr
aka charlie