Yep, I've also been waiting progress with this Nissan link. The Nissan diesels are more than common here, so if I only had some time to roam through the junkyards. A little hint about the particular engine type would ease the job a lot. BTW, Redrodder, try to contact the HAMBer ebtm3 He seems to have a lot of experience in building the Chevy fours. As far as I remember, he has a fully pressurised oiling in his car, for example.
ebtm3 taught me most of what I know- he's EXTREMELY helpful!!! All I remember about the Nissan was that it was either from a box truck or van.
I will have to look him up, that sounds great. One question i have for anyone who has torn down one of these motors: how are the mains oiled? i know there is an oil pump, what does it feed?
The oil pump in the Chevy four engine is simply a transfer pump. it pulls oil from the well and distributes it to various oil basins all around the engine and rest is done by gravity and splash. In addition in -28 it also pumps the oil through the filter. ebtm3 gave me a hint the that some 1950's chevy 6 pump fits to replace the original pump and gives a proper pressure. So, the rest have to built from there, I don't know is the oil distributor in the left side of the engine usable anymore with the full pressure. Anyhow, rest is probably the same as pressurising any old engine. There is a lot of info to Ford engine in HAMB. Were you planing to pressurize only mains or are you going to drill the crank for the big ends as well? One another tip I remembered. Do not remove the splashers from the bottom of the conrod. Same goes with the splash wells of them. They are mainly for oiling the big ends, but even if you pressurize the cons, they are important. They provide oil mist in the chamber that lubricates the small ends and this oil mist eventually ends up into collector inside the block wall that leads to, and lubricates, the cam gears. This is what comes to my mind in a short notice.
I was planning to pressurize the rods and mains, then modify for better oiling of the cam gears and cam, but not full pressure so i can still run the motor without the dust covers on top or side, I am thinking about drilling the rockers to accept grease fittings and putting a groove on the rocker shafts to be able to simply grease the rockers for lubrication, and figure out some sort of rubber sweeper seal to replace the felt pads on the pushrods
It seems that I ran across a metal one online here in the last couple of days, I will have to go back through and find it again
Got a little more info on the Nissan rockers from a conversation with Stevie G (the man has a great understanding of "what's out there" salvage yard-wise)- Nissan has a "big brother" in U D- their small diesel is around 7 liters... most likely has the rockers we're looking for AND they're plentiful around here! SO, I'll be hitting the local yards as soon as I can !!! ALSO, I've been giving alot of thought to the early Chevrolet 4 and just what modern parts (that will either fit or can be modified) might be out there for it- crank, cam, lifters, etc... Would love your thoughts, ideas, searches (successful and not)- might be fun to see what we can come up with! First step is to collect the proper info: sizes, measurements, etc. Anybody up for it?!
I am in, might take a bit of time, but definatly there, we can create a parts interchange, and a modification index for these motors. I have a feeling we can generate some real interest in these early 4s.
There's a great book by John Gerber about his racing days in the 20'-40's called, Outlaw Sprint Car Racer It's basically a memoir/journal that includes the modifications he did to his Chevy 4 (it was an early 490 block, but the concept is the same). I'm going to see if crazydaddyo will add our thread to attachments on the monthly banger threads.
Hi I just got a link to this thread from BCT. I have been working on my Chevy 4 project for a while now. I have a few 1928s. First off I did alot of porting especially in the bowl area reamed the head for 9/32" guides and installed Dodge 1.80" flathead 6 valves. then put early hemi V/S and keepers. Next I found 261 chevy 6 pistons would fit and still have OK wall thickness. These cut the deck height in half. I cant remember the volumes but the calculations worked out to 7.5:1 or so. The small end of the rods had to be bored out .080" for the wrist pins, i made a jig for my buddies bridgeport and that worked out fine. I was wondering if you guys have found any other modern piston choices? what insert bearings can be addapted to fit? I was thinking of pressure oiling the mains with an external pump. to drill the crank would take lots of holes and plugs, can it be done? How close is a ModelC crank to fitting? Has anyone welded counterweights on the crank like the Ford banger guys do? Im guessing you would have to fabricate aimed shooter pipes for the rod dippers if you were useing a modern pump or regulate the oil distibutor pressure so it didnt blow the oil right out of the troughs in the pan. I havent given much thought to the cam yet I was thinking a regrind to perk it up a bit to start. I plan on running a DCOE40 Webber sidedraft on it. Looking forward to more discution on these motors. I love "The Other Banger" label.
I am not sure on the c crank fitment, but i know it can be done with decent results, There was a guy on the vcca forum I beleive that had counterweights added to his chev crank. As I have said before I am not set on any setup yet, I am mainly gathering all the info available from all sources, mainly due to lack of funds and information is free . Eventually I hope to gather enough knowledge of these little 4s to make a decision on my components and machine work so that I can put forth all my efforts and funds to an acheiveable goal. I will be collecting all the free and cheap parts I can lay my hands on and help in the collection of data for future builds, I believe that we are really coming up with and authoratative source of information here. I am glad the folks of the HAMB are here to help, Lets Hear it for "The Other Banger" thread!
I have heard about using 261 pistons- how about rods? A regrind on the cam is probably the easiest/least expensive choice (just picked up a spare). Pressurized oiling and modern inserts are another issue- the advice I got was to only do one if you're going to do the other. Carb choices are plentiful- I may go with a pair of SU's that I got at Hershey (would love to find a Winfield, but like Red, I'm full of ideas with VERY empty pockets). I like the "Other Banger" idea as well... just don't to tick off the Dodge Fast 4 guys (and it would be great to have Rich Fox as an ally with all the mods he's done on early bangers )!
Hey, I just found the Nissan diesel info- PM'd 97 to see if we could get a little more clarity and maybe a pic. Will see what comes of it!
sweet, I was gonna talk to a buddy of mine that dabbles in machining and see what he thought of fabricating a good solid rocker, hopefully the nissan lead turns out well, custom rockers sound expensive
OK I got Mac's PM . I had lost the thread to post the results to, the rockers are back in the motor they came from . However it is almost winter here so the camper will be parked in the next few days. I will remove the cover and take some pics and measurements for you guys. There have been a few early Chevy 4s for sale here over the past month or so..... motors are relatively cheap, but freight would probably kill the deal. The rockers came from a Nissan Civilian , quite a small Japanese domestic market 4 cylinder bus, like 15-20 p***engers the one we have is a 1980 model. ED 30 is the engine model, it is a three liter motor, there is also an , ED33 which is just a bigger bore 3.3 liters. There were a lot of them bought into New Zealand second hand from Japan , but the motor is gutless and was mostly replaced with a 4.2 liter 6 . As I said , I have subscribed to this thread now and will endeavour to measure and report back ASAP.
OK I got Mac's PM . I had lost the thread to post the results to, the rockes are back in the motor they came from now. However it is almost winter here so the camper will be parked in the next few days. I will remove the cover and take some pics and measurements for you guys. There have been a few early Chevy 4s for sale here over the past month or so..... motors are relatively cheap, but freight would probably kill the deal. The rockers came from a Nissan Civilian , quite a small Japanese domestic market 4 cylinder bus, like 15-20 p***engers the one we have is a 1980 model. ED 30 is the engine model, it is a three liter motor, there is also an , ED33 which is just a bigger bore 3.3 liters. There were a lot of them bought into New Zealand second hand from Japan , but the motor is gutless and was mostly replaced with a 4.2 liter 6 . As I said , I have subscribed to this thread now and will endeavour to measure and report back ASAP. Dunno if I posted these pics last time . Not very clear I know will attempt a better shot when I remeasure. In the meantime that is a six inch ruler so you can get the general idea.Ratio looks a whole lot better than 1:1 already.
On the 261 rod use the rod journals are way to huge. Piston choices would be way more if a custom length and wrist pin size rod was available. Ive given thought to makeing custom fabricated tubular rods like an old vintage airplane engine. I think Hisspana Suiza or Buggatti used tubeular rods in the 20s on their engines. My idea was to use a super light modern V6 piston or something with its wrist pin and small end grafted to a custom length tubular rod with the Chevy 4 big end on the other. Or machine a whole rod out of billet. That sounds Ex$$pencive! Has anyone ever made a tubular rod or seen one for real? Does it sound far fetched to try and weld one together? I think whittleing some rockers out of square bar stock wouldnt be to hard they look fairly simple. This tread is awesome lets keep brainstorming. What ever happened to all Ruffi and Spurgins technical data? did it die with them? Info on these engines seems to be a closely heald secret with the now late racers that used them. Before the war they seemed to be a threat to every other engine out there. They certantly were fast in the right hands.
Hi all Red Rodder sent a PM and asked me to join in. I have a '27 block with drilled, counterweighted and balanced crank. Full pressure oil, all aluminum bearings. Ford A rods, homemade pistons. Mild cam, homemade tappets and pushrods. Three port head with the rocker shaft moved over and homemade aluminum rockers. Larger valves. Heattreated studs hold head, which is lapped to block and used no gasket. Water p***ages between head and block have O rings. You have to run a lot of ignition advance, because, like a Miller head on an A Ford there is no turbulence. I'm about 7.5-1 and close to 45 deg full advance at speed. Fabricated aluminum rocker cover, and enlarged intake with updraft carb from a lift truck. I do have a dual manifold that I welded up from aluminum tube that has two SU carbs from a 1600 Volvo, but it only shows more performance above about 3500RPM, so most of the time I use the updraft setup. Cut Chev flywheel, Volvo clutch and transmission. All in homebuilt car with aluminum body. One thing that no one has mentioned is that all the 4 cyl Chev cams use a solid lifter with a radius cut on the bottom. Because of this, there is only point contact between lifter and cam lobe. This wears the cam lobe quickly- kind of a stupid arrangement. If you want something better, you will have to get the cam built up and re profiled and use flat bottom lifters. There are at least 4 different camshafts stock. Pre '26--no distributer/oil pump gear on middle bearing. 26-27 with dist. gear. '28 with dist gear and larger bearings, and FA-FB-- the 224 cid engine '18 - '23 that the 3 port head was used on in '23, which has no center gear, but does have higher lift stock (IF you can find one that isn't junk from lifter wear. Off and on I'm working on building up a 224. Have a reprofiled cam, a couple of magnifluxed cranks waiting to get drilled and counterweighted, and some 4340 steel billets to make tubular rods from. Putting a Ford C crank in one of the 173" blocks is a lot of work, and if you don't have the means to do it yourself, would be terribly expensive. Two of the mains would have to be turned and ground undersize and the rod throws would have to be ground to 1.500" (Ford A diameter). The block would have to be line bored larger on the front and center main diameters, and new main caps made. Counterweights and interior of block conflict at the front and rear of the engine, and this must be attended to. BTW- Durant rods are longer than either Ford or Chev. by a little bit. All for now, but will try to add my 2 cents when questions come up. Herb Kephart
ebtm3 I have a 27 Durrant Star 4 Continental motor. Are these the rods that are a little longer? I didnt realize the lifters were radius ground, Guess mine were worn so bad I thought they were flat. Could a guy convert to Harley E-head rollers or such, there about the right size. Shure would like to see some pics of your pistons, crank and plans for your tubuar rods. Did you drill your crank yourself?
Thanks for chimin in ebtm3, it is most appreciated, we will continue to try and get any and all who have dealings with these fours to add their two cents to the pot, and eventually these pennies will turn to gold and remember all of you, the only stupid question is the one not asked! Even if no one has the answer, it provides many with the curiosity to find out. From this thread we shall create our monsters, perhaps we can bring "The Other Banger" back to the light it seems to have dissapeared from.
Welcome aboard Herb, I was expecting you to join. Unsafe6 asked about the pistons. I already mentioned the Mercedes Benz and here is some numerical data. I have not tested them yet, so their functionality is still only theoretical. measures of chevy piston diam. 3 11/16" (93,68mm) height 3 11/16" (93,68mm) crown height 1 15/16" (49,21mm) pin diam. 55/64" (21,89mm) measures of MB (230/4 1973-80) piston diam. 93,75mm height 82mm crown height 51,8mm pin diam. 26mm The pin diameter does not fit to Chevy cons, but the Ford A conrod small end is 1" (25,4mm), so the MB pistons should be usable with them. The big end diameter is the same in Chevy and Ford, only that the ford big end is narrower that in Chevy. The block and small ends need to be bored to metrics, and otherwise the pistons should fit in without any problems Both piston, the original and MB, are flat tops. I calculated that MB piston with Ford A conrod would give scarcely 6:1 compression in the Chevy block, which is fine for street use with babbitts. If you do the major work to fit the C crank, the compression will increase close to 7:1. I would go the Herb's path and counterweight the stock crank in this case. Anyhow, my plans are for the street use, not for the salt lakes. The source is not domestic for you fellow Americans, but as far as I've understood the MB was rather common in US during the 1970's, albeit most of them were with 6 cylinder engines.
Unsafe6 I'm not sure if all Durant rods are the same, or if the ones from a Star are correct. This is a question one of the chaps from Australia can answer much more accurately than I can, as there seems to be more of that sort of thing in OZ. As to roller tappets (Harley or otherwise)- not a bad idea, but two important things to keep in mind- first, a POSITIVE way of keeping the roller axle parallel to the camshaft is needed, and second- using a roller on a cam meant for a flat tappet cuts the valve opening to quite a degree. The valve will still open the lift of the cam, but will lift and lower much more slowly. The likelihood of finding a stock Chevy cam in usable condition is about the same as winning the lottery. Yes, I drilled the crank myself- but I have a rather complete machine shop. And sorry, but I don't seem to have the time to do work on all my projects, let alone do jobs like that for others. Working on some info on pistons and rods, which I will post (hopefully) today. Herb
Ok, so i am throwing out the ford c crank idea on my build, but I would like to know what insert bearings can be adapted to replace the babbit, My current idea (which could change any minute at this point ) is to use the stock crank (who would be able to add counter weights?) convert to insert bearings, pressure oil the crank, modify to improve oiling elswere in the engine, use the ford a rods, and figure out the piston choices, then fab up some form of a twisted square tubing intake for fuel delivery, and a custom set of headers. Then some improved rockers, a good cam from delta camshaft (a local cam grinder here, I use them for everything) figure out some better lifters (it would be cool if that harley roller idea would work, rollers would be sweet and less wear) some modern valves and springs, then make my modifications to be able to run the motor without covers and whala, a nice little early 4 for my coach.
Red Rodder with the truck bellhousing that you have a T-5 5spd would be a bolt on. You could cruise 60mph no problem in a small car. Just have to get out every 50 miles or so to oil the rockers. I like your grease ****** idea. I looked at using a much smaller 2.8 chev V-6 flywheel and clutch but the bolt patern wont leave enough meat to redrill to the 28 crank. One again this thread rules. Im feeling like didging out all my parts and taking some pics. ebtm3 could you share more on your tubular rod plans please.
I'll have to make my way down to the shop today and grab some numbers off the motors and trans to share, maybe then someone can tell me what i have, a t5 would be awesome, and I'll have to put some more thought into my rocker greasing setup.
Now that's an understatment ... if you ever need a good shop monkey to do your sweeping let me know! Picked up some '27 parts the other day (cam, lifters, etc) from espay... not realizing that the lifters are COMPLETELY different! I've done some yard searching and have found a few roller lifters that could be used with a little honing of the bores on a '28 block, but the cam would have to be reground like Herb said. Herb, is there enough meat around the lifter bores on a pre '28 to open them up to a modern lifter?
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