Get ready, King Of Trucks is coming...

Glass bowl Holleys

 

Pure sex...







I won't even hurt your feelings by telling you how stupid cheap this was.





I should also add I borrowed a '50s home made split exhaust manifold from a buddy so I could slap it together at the very last minute to drive it to the Iron Lords cc party last night. And as usual, much drama and heartaches came with an easy job. I opened the box the brand new gasket came in only to find two center pieces and only one outside piece. I called to get another only to be told they couldn't get it yesterday in time. But miracle of miracles, it showed up at 4:00. Another good buddy picked it up for me and brought it over. Now keep in mind, I've got a three piece gasket, a two piece exhaust manifold and the intake I'm trying to finagle with only two hands and just a couple of hours to do it and get it running and get cleaned up so I could make the scene. It all worked out and I got to drive to the party. I missed driving it for the last three weeks so much. So not only just driving, but getting to drive it to such a cool party with so many other cool cars was the best!

So needless to say, with the McGurk find for stupid cheap and getting to drive to the party made for an awesome weekend! But now I have to start learning about Carters, which I know less than nothing about.

 

Great thread Turd, I just finished reading the whole thing when I should really be going to the dump, fixing the mower and mowing the grass!

 

Thanks!



I finally got my Fentons! I can't say enough good things about Patrick's. The guy is passionate about stovebolts, that's for sure. Super nice guy to talk to! Give him a call, he gets my hearty recommendation. So today, I got some barbecue black on the headers. I will put them on tomorrow. I'm checking into kits for the Carters. As soon as I know I've got the right kits, I'll rebuild those. I'm not sure if I can use any of the four Holley glass bowls, they all four seem to be different. I sure like the way they look. Or maybe something even cooler will come along. Time will tell on that one. I think Ive pretty much decided to polish the McGurk intake too. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment!

I need to find some new cool air cleaners too. Or some adapters (but those seem kind of cheesy). The Carters are smaller than the Rochesters and those super cool cast aluminum air cleaners are too big. And to think I've been putting all that effort into polishing them. Maybe I'll use 'em and maybe not? I like the fact that they're on the large side compared to those tiny typical chrome 1 bbl. air cleaners. More air and all that. It's finally getting the in and out fit for King Of Trucks. It feels good.



....................



....................Sorry, I got distracted there for a minute. What was I talking about? There were some titties on the tv. National Lampoon's Movie Madness, 1981. Teresa Ganzel. Wow! I miss the '80s. The third (and best) wave of Ska, growing up on and influenced by 2 Tone. All Ages punk rock shows. Skating was becoming absolutely gigantic. Miami Vice. Gawd that show was awesome, for so many reasons. They had killer music, Suicidal Tendencies was on one episode. The before-it's-time Bren Ten. Well, until Sonny got amnesia. Then it sucked. And real titties. That's what I miss the most. Real titties on tv. We talk a lot about the good old days around here. I was born in '72 and it sure was nice coming of age in the '80s. Now what was I talking about again? Oh yeah...

Just another pic, not quite so shiny in person. Black means serious bidness...

 

I got the Fentons on tonight. As usual, nothing's easy. I had to modify the intake/exhaust hold downs to compensate for the thicker flanges on the Fentons. I had to go and get a degree in engineering to figure out how to bend the throttle linkage rod so it wouldn't bind anywhere in it's range of motion. That was easily two hours of bending, checking, bending, checking, etc.

I broke both the top and bottom cotter pins on the throttle linkage and had to use nails temporarily. I broke the tab on the throttle rod that holds the throttle return spring. The stock spring wouldn't work after that, so I had to use the only spring I had laying around which was too light and frequently kept the gas pedal from returning all the way up.

I had a HELL OF A TIME trying to hook up the heat riser tube. That was easily an hour killed there. I was able to limp it to the Iron Lords shop tonight where we welded a washer on the throttle rod linkage to use the stock spring in the correct place again. I also bummed some new cotter pins to replace the nails. My buddy BloodyKnuckles welded the new Fenton exhaust flanges on my old dump tubes.

I got the carb dialed in better than ever before. I spent a bunch of time fine tuning the two screws after installing the Fentons. It idles nicer than I thought it could and has killer throttle response. I still need studs to screw into the Fenton outlets to mount the exhaust. I need a plug for the unused port in the Fentons (the heat plate kit only uses one outlet). After that, I can start building the rest of the exhaust!

While we're on the subject of exhaust, let's compare and contrast three different split exhausts for the 235.



In the top of the photo is a home made split factory exhaust manifold. This is a newly made piece. It is split with a hole drilled and an extra outlet welded to the back half. It has a divider welded in the center of the manifold to divide the front and back half. The spring loaded heat valve has been eliminated. The extra outlet is broken off in the photo. Such are the pitfalls of welding old cast iron.

In the middle is a home made split factory exhaust manifold from "back in the day". This is a true split manifol having been cut in half and the open ends welded up. It has the same extra outlet on the back half. The spring loaded heat valve is kept in place and is operable. The quality of this piece is amazing. Who ever did this really knew how to weld cast iron. You can see in the next photos how smooth the ends are.

On the bottom is the venerable Fentons. Another true split exhaust manifold. The old faithful, cast from the original molds by the only guy licensed to do so, Patrick's. You'll know the real ones from the copies by seeing "front" and "rear" cast into the appropriate piece. The ones you buy at Speedway are made somewhere else and do not use the original molds. I've heard the quality is not up to par with the originals, but I have not had a chance to examine the copies in person.


Check out the skills...




Out of the three manifolds, (and I ran them all), the Fentons sound the best. But if I could've talked my buddy Delton into selling me the middle ones, I'd have run those. They're super nice, legit period pieces, and I just really really like them! But, alas, he wouldn't sell and I'm running the Fentons now and forever.

I'll get the studs and plug tomorrow and get those on along with installing the dump tubes. I'll try to pick up a couple of 1 3/4" sticks very soon and get started bending up the rest of the exhaust.

Thanks again for all y'all do around here. You are my constant inspiration! And a special thanks to Deltron and Boobie for the welding and P.R. Petey for crawling under my truck when he sure didn't have to.

 

Love the truck, Turd! Saw it at the Shindig. Really wish I had had the time to give it a good once-over. We'll have to make time for that the next time I'm down.

 

Well, Terd, looks like you learned another six cylinder lesson or two. I dont think its worth the time to screw with the throttle linkage anymore. for $20 I buy Patricks linkage for the Fentons and use it. The rod to the accelerator is pre bent correctly, there is a spring there, washers cotter pins etc. Then you find an old offy link for the carbs and its done.

A couple of us over at inliners had some of the keepers made to custom fit for the flanges too. If it went on corrretly you should have only had to modify 4 of them. CNC Dude has the patterns (if he will ever get them back to me)

 

Just let me know! You're welcome at the house any time!

Wish I had known about the Patrick's linkage rod! I nearly went insane bending the stock one. You need to be a NASA aerospace engineer to figure out what to do to it, lol. I'd bend it, put it on to check, realize I bent it in the wrong direction, re-bend it, put it on, realize I bent it in a different wrong direction, repeated that process MANY times. But in the end, I got it. It was just very time consuming to get it perfect. That was for sure the longest and most frustrating part of the swap. That, along with the heat tube, turned a one hour job into four.

The bolt hold downs, or "keepers", were easy to modify. I did them on a bench wheel. Like you said, I only had to modify four of them. It was the easiest part of the whole install. Really no need for patterns, you can pretty much look and see what material needs to be removed. Next time I have them off, I'll take pics of the keepers and post them here. Should help somebody somewhere on down the line.

 

Yeah, its always the little things that take all the time. I have a bunch of pictures of how I modified the keepers too and I can send them to you if you want to post them.

 

Hey 6inarow - any pix of that Patrick's linkage setup?

thanks
- Joe

 

no good pictures - here is one on a mocked up 235 - look carefully at the third picture. Behind the rear header you can see the bell crank. then you can see how the rod comes between the carbs. Its not real good but you get the idea

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324492

 

Thank you!

 

Bending throttle linkages is where all the fun is at!....
Well, at least after hours of doing it, thats my delusion, and im sticking to it!

Trucks looooking good, terd.

 

Thanks! I have the same delusion!



I got the studs and nuts and plug for the Fentons and got the dump tubes on.




And here's a close up of one of the hold downs modified to work with the Fentons. Four have to be modified. Two are just like the picture, and the other two are modified by taking out a slightly different shape but quite similar to these.



So to finish it up right, I need to cut the old flanges off the dump tubes that are now on the bottom. In the next couple of days, I'll get a couple of sticks of 1 3/4" tubing and start bending up the exhaust going to the bedside. Once that's done and welded and mounted with hangers and flex joints, I'll get the stainless sticks for the "belly burner" portion. I've got a buddy in a big time race shop with a fancy mandrel bender who can bend the stainless. I've got an idea for the tips of this exhaust and it involves killer chopper parts. You'll see soon enough.

Sometime in the mean time, I'm gonna get a drop axle and flip the rear. All the while, I'll be polishing the McGurk intake. I picked up one carb kit today and will get the other one tomorrow and will do the carbs very soon too. It's just a flurry of action around here! Intake, carbs, exhaust, and suspension work all at the same time. Hopefully and realistically, by the end of summer I'll have all this stuff done. Super duper hopped up with the right stance! It sounds like a long time, but not really considering all I want to have done by then.

 

I now have two carb kits for the Carters. I'm going to try and get into those this weekend. I've got another area that sort of need attention. I need to look into replacing the rear main seal. It doesn't leak bad, but I hate leaks. I think the side cover needs a gasket too.

 

I would really like to see some pics when you start the lowering stuff I want to do that here this summer. Keep up the good work turd

 

Don't worry, there will be plenty of pics! Thanks for the encouragement.

 

I've posted this link before, but I gotta put it up again. I spoke to Jon (carbking here on the hamb) today at The Carburetor Shop. He is a super nice guy with a ton of knowledge. He was patient and actually seemed to enjoy answering all my dumb questions despite the fact I wasn't spending any money with him today. When I'm ready, he'll be the only carb guy I go to from now on for kits and parts! I'd suggest you do the same!

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/



So, the reason I called carbking was to positively ID the Carter YFs I got with the McGurk intake so I could get the right rebuild kits. The ones I got from the local parts place weren't correct. It's not their fault, I wasn't sure what to ask for before talking to carbking. He told me where to look for some numbers (the metering rod) and was able to tell me the Carters were aftermarket units sold by the likes of JC Whitney back in the day. He has kits for them.

That brings up a good news bad news type scenario. While speaking with carbking, he asked if I'd seen his articles on his site about selcting and tuning carbs in a two or three carb set up. I told him yes and how awesome I thought it was. The theory goes to use two 216 sized carbs on a 235. I asked him about my 261. He told me the best performance from a mild motor would be using either two 235 sized carbs or three 216 sized carbs. That follows the same theory, which is what I suspected and he confirmed.

So now what? I just sold my dual Rochester B set up so I could run the McGurk. And while the McGurk with the two Carters aren't wrong to run, the engine won't see it's full potential. And having a legitimate excuse to run three fully functioning carbs is exactly what I wanted to hear!

So it's down to three choices now.
1. Rebuild the two carter YFs and run them on the McGurk.
Upside- I have everything I'd need but the rebuild kits. This is the easiest and quickest option.
Downside- I'd be a little under-carbed, kits are expensive.

2. Find a 235 triple intake and one more matching Carter YF and run three carbs.
Upside- I already have two and only need to find one. I could sell the McGurk for fun and profit and get an offy repop or hold out for something cooler. When I pop the hood, there'll be three carbs.
Downside- more time involved looking/waiting for parts. Kits are still expensive and now I'd need three instead of two.

3. Keep the McGurk, redrill for 235 carbs and find a matching set of carbs.
Upside- I'd still be able to run the McGurk (which I think is super cool).
Downside- machining the intake, finding a matching set of carbs (like I just sold, doh!), there's still just two carbs staring back at you when you pop the hood.

Given the three choices, I'd much rather see number two happen. The offy three pots are easily available and there seems to be plenty of room at the firewall. If I do, I'd like to find a different/cooler intake than the offy three pot. I don't know, still thinking out loud. What would you do?

 

I like option one. It maybe under carbed a bit but your not going to need the full potential of that motor since it's more or less a custom in the end. Yeah three carbs are cool to look at when you open the hood but no one is going to notice or be like "oh, theres only two".

You just need to get the motor operating right so that you can drive it comfortably and so it sounds good. More carbs equal more headache and that's not something you necessarily need on a truck that's not going to be giving any mustangs a run for there money any time soon.

I would get that engine buttoned up so you can focus on getting that 4x4 down a little closer to the earth or slapping some 44 inch super swampers on so it looks the part. hahaha!!!!!


The McGurk is Rad use it!

 

Anyways if this was really the King Of Trucks, you'd be running a GMC 302 with 5 carbs.

 

do number one, change the metering rods to what Jon suggests and run it. it may be a bit undercarbed but its not like you are going to burn a piston. In all practicality it will only mean a few horsepower anyhow. It may not be undercarbed at all. Remember that a 261 is only 10 or 11% bigger than a 235.

More guys screw these inlines up with cam and ignition anyhow - be sensible with cam selection and get a GOOD ignition and you will be fine with they 2 YFs. Listen to Jon then buy his parts

 

"More carbs equal more headache and that's not something you necessarily need ..." said the pot (Mr. 4 deuces) to the kettle. Although he might not always take his own advice, JJ is right on this one - you'll have much more fun driving with 2 carbs NOW than losing more cruising in search of your Holy Grail of 3. vic

 

Shhhh, or you're going back to Shady Acres uncle Vic! You are correct though, I am probably going to pull my hair out trying to get all 4 of those carbs working correctly. But if I could have afforded the Nicson 2x2 intake I would have went that route...maybe.

I think for right now getting your truck running right is the most important. Then getting the suspension dialed in next. I know my '35 is going to take a lot longer then I had anticipated so I am come to accept that I will not be driving that car any time soon and the 4x2 intake is only going to make matter worse. Hopefully I'll have the Merc to drive all summer long though.

 

I think the McGurk intake is such a nice vintage piece that you should run it and "full potential" be damned.

 

The McGurk is super rad, no doubt! I'm still debating but leaning towards the three carbs.

GMC = Gay Man's Chevy.

Jon says my motor with headers and open exhaust will run better with three YFs than two YFs. He says the best choice for the 261 is three 216 sized carbs or two 235 sized carbs. It's more than ok to run the two YFs, but it'll just be better to run three.

Vic,

From what I read and what carbking said, it's not any more trouble to run three versus two. Tuning and set up with a Uni-syn or other syncing device is the important part if you don't want headaches. carbking says it's pretty much a piece of cake with a uni-syn. He says a lot of complaints are from the newer neoprene accelerator pumps (vs. older leather pumps) with ethanol combined with not driving a lot. I don't have those problems.

The truck is running better than ever now. I spent a bunch of time fine tuning the Rochester with the Fentons, and then again when I added the dump tubes. Suspension is for sure next. It won't be too much longer til it's sitting right.

If I go with three carbs, I won't settle for any less rad a piece than the McGurk.

 

More carbs = more airflow = more fuel consumption, something else to think about on a daily driver. Unless I'm building a race engine I don't concern myself much with full potential. I prefer driveability first, sound, then style. Thats why my straight eight still has one carb on it. I'm working on the sound part now, driveability is good.

 

I like option one, probably the best all around package. Get it going dude!

 

Driveability and mileage will be the same with two or three carbs. Mileage is improved with multi carbs vs. single and will be the same with two or three carbs. I'm learning a lot of new multi carb info from talking to Jon, carbking on here. He says there's not much better than 3 Carter W1s or WA1s on a 261. The only hiccup in tuning them would be a jet change after rebuilding them and the initial set up. And his kits include different sized jets.

That said, I found a stack of matched Carter W1s today. There's for sure four good ones and a few more stuck ones. I'm going back tomorrow to get them. I'll get the four good ones and rebuild three and keep one for parts.

I can drive it anywhere now with the stock single carb. So the decision between two or three carbs doesn't affect whether or not I can drive it. I really think the three carbs is what I want to do. Now I just need to find a rad triple intake.

I should also add I talked to Boobie's exhaust guy and picked up some aluminized sticks today to start building the exhaust. He can't supply 1 3/4" stainless. The smallest he can get is 2". So I'm on the lookout for some stainless. I've now got enough aluminized sticks to get it to the bed sides.

 

You just can't talk sense into these young punks. Sheesh......

 

The 225 in my '63 Plymouth had headers, a hot cam, increased compression and little glasspacks. I was running a 390 cfm Holly 4bbl carb and it was fucking RAD.

25 mpg & it would cruise all day at 85 mph.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_AEclEfVcjkA/SaF4kc9wztI/AAAAAAAAFuw/Tcf1D6tdBi8/s800/New_Carb.jpg

If it was me, I'd shoot for combined CFM of around 400 from your carbs.

I wonder what the CFM is on my glass bowl holly carbs.

- Joe