New oil eating old engines

Thanks for taking the time to make a solid POSITIVE contribution to the Message Board.

Do you ever post anything positive/original or do you simple wait to criticize others?

Your HAMB interactions remind me of Mencken's famous quip about Puritanism: "The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy”

You seem to be the internet version of a puritan who is afraid someone, somewhere, may enjoy and learn from his/her fellow enthusiasts.

 

If you can read, it's as easy as clicking my name and "find more posts", otherwise "Pot the kettle is black"...

 

ZMan + criticism = tuff guy

 

tough. At least learn to spell if you're gonna continue this.

 

zman you damned hoodlum you.

 

Prove it.

You may or may not have repaired engines with wiped cams, but there is not proof what so ever that the cam has been trashed because of a lack of a zinc compound.

If you're going to make a statement like that you should have at the very least have some sort of a chemical/metallurgical analysis or to back it up.

Just how many cams have you replaced since the whole zinc additive thing hit the net? How many of them were quality cams and you can prove that they were not defective from the factory? How many had good quality lifters running on them?

Along with this topic coming up at least twice a week there is always the statement that "I have replaced a ton of cams that were ruined because they didn't run the proper additive in their engine"

Let's see the damned proof of what you got to say. Post copies of the report by the metallurgist that ran tests on the cams you replaced.

I'll bet you spend an hour combing the corn out of your hair in the morning.

 

I have been using Valvolene Racing Oil since oil companies have removed the Zinc properties. This oil has the needed zinc.

 

Funny how all the "kumbaya me" talk is coming from the newer folk with sign ons less than a year old?

mrmrsoldford, you got lucky, best to do it right and drop the pan. It is great you wanted to pass along your experience but like Russian Roulette it will get you at some time.

As for doing a search and the archives...........you think Ryan pays the thousands of dollars he does to keep them just for shits and giggles? He could easily wipe out posts after 6 months and save lots of money. Instead, he keeps them as a reference for us to go back to year after year. I find myself digging up topics in the archives every day and reading them. Just like my old magazine collection.

 

<cite>HAMBers,

</cite><cite>I found an informative PDF from Mobil 1 showing the zinc and phosphorus content of their motor oils, among other data.

Go to:

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf
</cite><cite>
Based on a fact I learned today from </cite>mrmrsoldford's <cite>brand new thread I went to the above Mobil 1 url. One of the Hambers on this thread communicated that the Mobil 1 T4 motorcycle oil formulation had high zinc content, which it does (1700ppm). However, I noted with interest that "standard" Mobile 1 automobile oil in the 15w-50 viscosity range contains 1300ppm of zinc. Moreover, Mobil's "Recommended applications" comment noted that this formulation was suitable for flat tappet engines.

I then checked the internet price of Mobile 1 T4 and Mobile 1 15w-50 and found that the T4 oil is about $12.50/quart, while the 15w-50 oil is about $7.80/quart — quite a bit less. Thus, if 1500ppm of zinc is a the target, one could by a case of each and mix them 50:50. This would presumably be more than a super-safe level of zinc and would be quite a bit cheaper than buying a premium oil and adding a zinc supplement.

I think I'll use the "standard" Mobile 15w-50 automotive oil in my track roadster after the engine break-in period, 1300ppm seems more than an adequate Zn level.

The fact that the Mobil 1 engineers noted that their high zinc content product was recommended for flat tappet engines indicates that a lack of zinc could be a problem for such engines.

It's great what you learn from new threads that address older topics; I guess that's why the HAMB format is so interesting and useful.

Oh...but wait... I bet zman already knew all this and is going to be pissed that someone had the temerity to repost the information.

Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy

Cheers
trakrodstr

</cite>

 

Happiness is a choice as is motivation.

If you are looking for either from any of us you are looking in the wrong place.

Ok so now we have had our spiritual lesson for the month.
carry on

 

I have built my share of motors, have never had a cam failure. I have a favorite woman, but have never really had a 'favorite' oil. I used to, when I was a kid, like Pennzoil, but then found out by accident that Quaker State came from a refinery in the same state!! Live and learn........

I shop for oil by price, usually take what's on sale. I prefer Castrol GTX or Valvoline because of their pretty bottles, but as I slink around the autoparts store and happen to see a good deal, like last week, I got a case for less than 2.99 a quart; goodby favortism, hello economic!~!

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

 

i have a 351 ford m motor, the motor has 34000 miles a runs great , I `m replacing the cam, heads, and the entire valve trane with 4v heads rebiuld for todays fuels, wieand dual tunnel ram, everyone tells me rotella CI, CJis low zinc. where can you get it? not having any luck , its all CJ. do i even need break, i have been soaking everything in 10 40 with 15% zymoil for about 2 months.

 

I remember there being one manufacturer that had a run of cams that pretty much self destructed due to being to soft. I do not remember if it was due to bad cores or not being treated properly.

Yes I knew that it had high zinc, I also knew that it was formulated for wet clutches. So there is a whole different additive package compared to oil that is not. The mix may get you the best of both worlds in your eyes. But the Mobil 1 is still pretty expensive compared to other high zinc oils. There is also some discussion as to wether to run synthetics in a flat tappet motor at all. Oh well. Carry on making yourself feel smart.

 

Did someone mention Cams being "wiped out"???
(Here's the thread on my '61...Go to post #17)
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=468436

Was this the result of not enough zddp in the Oil?


Here's the Lifters(what's left of them,4 "shattered")

 

Might as well close down most of the website. Almost everything has been brought up. NEVER EVER mention or ask about anything that has been through the process previously. There is hardly anything new.
So, it's maybe just classifieds from now on.

 

does anybody know how many miles it will take to do a cam in with todays oils? what would be a sign of a running engine going bad?

 

They change oil formulations all the time, so any new info on this subject is relevant, in my opinion.

 

New info is great, but the OP did a barnyard overhaul, not great. Good for him but not good advice.

 

That is a loaded question. Partly depends on if the engine was broken in properly. If not properly broken in with the properly assembly paste break in oil etc it is like instant. Wear is not consistent to each lifter / lobe on camshaft. Engine builders can measure wear issues rather quickly after a few runs if they break the motor down.

Metal shavings in the oil is one sign (a little late though) ...in most cases it happens gradually. its like run flat tires...some of them last maybe 9,000 miles some can go 12,000 miles....Probably get some lifter noise and idle will change ever so slightly. Power at high rpm will fall off.

Point is, if you have use the current oil with the star burst on the back with SM conventional or synthetic you need to add zddp. The simplest way is to add zddplus which has the proper concentration of the zddp molecule to bump it up to 1,800 ppm. zddp is the lubricant that has been present in oil for 40-50 years.

It can be added any time. The high performance engine you got (extreme pressure points) the more zddp is needed to avoid wear issues.

I know its difficult for non believers to believe that the current oil is not backwards compatible but truth of the matter is it isn't anymore. for flat tappet engines. Look what they did to gasoline gradually knocked down the octane rating.....some of you readers I am sure remember all the choices Sunoco had at the pump! Kids today don't member anything above 93 proof...

Next thing you know lawn mowers will have catalytic converters on them with the State of California leading the way.....

Or search out any of the various speciality oils that claim they got 1,500 ppm of zddp not just zinc but zddp. Not many oil companies will tell you this.


denniskirban@yahoo.com

 

Not to mention variables like spring pressure and cam lift. If it's a less radical cam with relatively low spring pressure it will take longer. Valve geometry will also make a difference. There are lots and lots of variables.

I am a big fan of cleaning my drain pans. Then when I do an oil change I can always tell what's from this particular change and not left over from the last one. It's like the opposite of panning for gold, you don't want the shiny in the bottom. You can usually get a pretty good idea of something going south by paying attention when you change the oil.

 

Good reading Ed, thanks.

 

Mr Zman I noticed your location interesting enough, the product zddplus is produced within about 30 miles of where you reside.......I was just down there last week.

denniskirban@yahoo.com

 

I can still get C-I oil at NAPA it's there premium brand oil and it's about $2.50 a qt.... It's all I use...

[/QUOTE]

 

lost post.anyways yes you do need to properly break in your cam.30w oil with break-in lube additive.rev engine up to 2000rpm for 20 minutes.drain oil.now put in new oil with the right amount of zddp at EVERY OIL CHANGE.if you read the instructions that came with your cam it will tell you this.when i bought my new cam from comp.cams there was a BIG WARNING card that came with it and let everyone know that with flat tappet cams lifter and lobe dammadge will happen if you dont either use a oil with the right amount of zddp or an additive.

 

im not sure what the zddp.does but i know it helps the lifters spin on the lobes of the cam.if you look at the botom of the lifters it should have swirl marks.the need to have these so when they are moving up and down they also turn.when the spin,A it lets oil get between the cam/lifters and B the heat build up is spread around the whole lifter.i had a fellow racer start up his NEW engine.did the cam break in procidure.change oil then the next day go for a ride.in less than 10 miles he had to have it towed home.the lifters looked like someone took them and pushed them against a grinder for about 20 minutes.some were so bad that the bottom was gone and the inner spring poped out!!!!!

 

i dont know where you are getting your pricees at but its usually less than $50.00 a case.i just bought some at the end of last year and it was $48.00.the only reason i dont just go with the add.is how much is enough?i know that brad-penn has the right amount.

 

i went under napas oil specs.and couldnt find how much zddp it had in it.to me if it doesnt say on the back of the bottel that it has the right amount for a flat tappet cam im not going to put it in my engine.all i cam say is if you bought the cam from lets say Comp-Cams.then go to there web site and use the oil that they recomend.JMO!!

 

One of the earlier threads said GM EOS had been reformulated, any current info on that?

 

No I Kustom Zomet to prove the damned camshafts that he changed that were destroyed by the lack of zinc. He can't prove a thing because

#1 He probably hasn't changed very many flattened cams in the last couple of years.

#2 He can't prove that the cams that he changed were flattened because of lack of zinc in the oil.

Did he even bother to check the lobe lift on the suspect cams? All the lobs showed excessive wear? Just one or two? How long had the cams been in use? Were they properly broken in? Did someone drop a screw in the lifter galley when they were assembling the mill? How does he know?

He can't answer any of the above questions because he doesn't know. Perhaps he can answer the first question.

I think its nice that your friend is one helluva a nice guy and a chemical engineer. But I asked Kustom Komet about what he had done and the proof of his statement not what everyone else has done and said.

I think its nice that you were so kind as to come to his rescue. But where the hell is he?


Hell Ed you're a shop teasher how many flattened cams have you changed in the last say 2 years? can you answer any of the above questions?

 

Thanks for posting...