In 1963, If you sat down with a car dealer...

Not true. Both Dodge and Plymouth had what was marketed as the "Race Hemi" in 1964 and 1965. These were available in Coronets and Belvederes only.

The detuned "Street Hemi" debuted in the 1966 Coronets and Belvedere/Satellites. There were four 1966 Coronet four-door sedans built with original factory 426 Hemis, but NO Hemi wagons, ever! One of the four-doors is in Don Garlits' museum in Ocala, FL, and was one of two sold out of the same Dodge dealership in Wichita, KS. I've seen it and the white car both in Wichita about twenty years ago and can confirm they are the real deal.

 

Uh, no on that one. There were NO Plymouth Hemis built that were not 426 cars, meaning NO '50s Hemi Plymouths from the factory. There were dealer-installed Hemis cars, but NO factory Plymouth Hemis. DeSoto, Chrysler, Dodge, and larger Dodge trucks had Hemis available, but NO Plymouths.

 

Look at this site. Aubrey has a couple.
http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/


Go for a ride?
http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/movies/64pont1.MPG

http://www.bruneauperformance.ca/movies/64pont3.MPG

 

Wow, you are right....I forgot they were all just Desoto, Chrysler, and Dodge.

I stand corrected...you are the man Patrick66.

 

2 of those 4 door Hemi Coronets were FBI cars.....

 

My brother had a 66 Charger with a big head 318 motor and a 3 on the tree.

Rich

 

That is kinda cool...beats a K car like the 80's when my buddies Dad was an agent. They could not catch a guy here once when we were kids and they had to ask the Texas Highway Patrol to catch a child kidnapper on the run for them in Mustangs.

I will never forget how glad his dad was they caught him and how mad he was that the K cars could not keep up. I remember seeing my buddies dad on TV talking about the case and seeing that it was an early 70's clapped out Ford pick up they were trying to catch.

 

All this fussin' an' fightin' over a beefed up wagon... So, I had to see it for myself... http://www.allmusclecars.com/wagon.htm I also read it elsewhere that Pontiac did build 3 of them... Do I believe it??? I'm not sayin'

 

Spring of 1965 ,,5 Factory Light Weight Hemi Super Stockers showed up at Polar Dragway ,,Anchorage ,Alaska ,,2 were Plymouths ,,3 were Dodges,,,they were hauled up there over the winter by the MOPAR Dealer ,,they kicked **** untill '67 when a couple L-88 BB Chevy Biscaines showed up ,that year i helped pull the Hemi outa my buddies '65 Dodge Coronet and we put it in a Anglia to run it in A/Gas , ,,we replaced the Hemi with a 426 Max Wedge and he ran it in Modified Production ,,that '65 Dodge Coronet now has been completly restored back with a Hemi and resides at a friends home in Pheonix,Arizona ,,,
a couple of those original '65 Factory Lightweight Hemi cars are still up there and are run on the street ,,

 

If I were sitting in a dealership in '63 and could get whatever I wanted I would be orderin' a Z-11 427 Impala SS as loaded as they would allow. Black/black of course.

 

Well Merc I was stateing something that I saw with my own eyes in my own life time. I was there and you set right there and called me a liar. That's pretty personal I think.

I have been accused of a lot of things in my lifetime some of them I'm not real proud of and most of them I did, and never ever tried to say I didn't. Lieing is not a fault that I have ever been known to have.

Unless things in Texas have really changed since my last visit you know how personal it is when you call someone a liar.

I wasn't aware that Merc was still building a truck when the F-100 came out. I suppose it was called an M-100? That's pretty cool.

I'd like to get a look at one. And you are absolutely right the Canadian merc cars were not as pleasent to look at as the American models.

Like about everyone else on here you missed my point on the original GTO post on this thread and that is you could order just about anything that didn't require retooling from the factory. You just had to know what to ask for.

One thing that I have learned in life is that it is far easier to prove something does exist than it is to prove it doesn't.

 

DuecePheaton; Thanks for that pic and link ,,WQW! that looks exactly like the one i ran across in Whitehorse, Yukon,Terr. in '66,,,, ,,i could be wrong here ,,but i think those '64 Canadian Pontiac Bonny's were Impalas with Pontiac trim ,,,just like the other Canadian Pontiacs were Chevys ,,
My Dad bought a new '63 Catilina Convertable with the Bonneville Engine ,,a 421 ,,i got to drive it around Des Moines when i was on a 30 day leave before going to Alaska ,,Awesum car ,,

 

You actually don't have facts backing you up at all.

#1 I was there and looked at the Judge you were not.

#2 You have do***ents that you claim that have been released that are supposed to be every do***ent ever produced when there are people that work for GM that don't have access to every do***ent ever produced. You never really have worked for a large corp have you.

#3 It has been stated in this thread that the GTO was the darling of Pontiac and that they wouldn't want anything in the world tarnish the name. Yet you say that they have released every do***ent of one of everything that Pontiac ever built to some Joe Howdy Do. If there was anything in the world that would "blemish" the name of GTO in the eyes of the purists do you actually think that GM would release it.

By the way by the time the Judge came about the GTO was a trim package and GM marketed it that way. The Judge trim package. Funny that they didn't call it the Judge or GTO Judge "performance" package.

 

PNB - your point seems to be that you have seen a wagon optioned out as a GTO, which is certainly believable. Everyone else who "misses your point" is simply saying that ordering the equivalent of any specific vehicle does not mean it IS one of those vehicles.

I'm sure you could order a Saturn Yellow or Apollo White '70 Buick GS with the Stage 1 455, sport mirrors, front and rear spoilers, padded steering wheel, etc., etc., Hell, you could probably even do it on a wagon too...but it would not have been an actual GSX no matter how you look at it.

Connman, if I were in the market for a Pontiac sports/concept car, it would certainly be the Banshee.

 

That's Correct ; the Judge was nuthing more than a trim option ,,just like the Chevy SS was just a trim option ,,,you still had to select the engine and trans you wanted on the option sheet ,right next to the 8-track tape player , disc brakes ( i had another '69SS 396 / 375 hp ,4 speed Chevelle with drum brakes ) ,and the bench or bucket seat options ,,if i remember right ,in '69 when i bought my '69 SS396 Chevelle ,,there were 21 options on the order sheet ,,
AND; if you didn't select an optional engine ,,you got the standard 6 cyl ,,
there was a '69 SS250 Chevelle ordered and was on eBay a couple years ago ,,the original old guy that had it had the build sheet ,,protecto card ,window sticker and the Dealer order/sales reciept ,,Chevy claimed they never built/sold a SS Chevelle with a 6 cyl ,,but ,in the end ,,they bought the car offa eBay and it's now in the GM Museum ,,

 

Fidgiter: I agree ,,the Banshee Was one KQQL Concept Car,,,wasn't it one of the ones G M Crushed ???

 

There were two Banshees built, one with a 326 V8 and one with an overhead cam 6. Both cars are still in existence; Joe Bortz has one in his collection of factory concept cars and the other one belongs to a private owner.

 

No, the GTO was stand alone all the years of the Judge. It started out as a Temptest, became its own car, and then you hit the horrid years of 72 til the end when it became an option on a Lemans and Ventura. The Judge itself was a top of the line trim option on the GTO, but originally it was developed as a low coast Roadrunner fighter that was going to be stripped down.

Look, I have nothing against you and consider this just a p***ionate argument/discussion between friends. I think you are wrong and pretty much every single GTO nut will back me up on this. Lets just quit and let a cool topic continue.

And yes, a wagon could be maxed out on options and be very GTO like but it was not a GTO. My confusion is one minute you say it was a GTO wagon and the next it is not.

As for the merc truck, I am going to have to search through old pics for that black one that was in the DFW area for so long. Maybe one of the other guys will chime in. It was around for along time. It was a killer truck.

I do not think you are lying, just mistaken. You probably think I am an *** but lets just bury the hatchet and stop bickering...cool?

 

Actually my point was that if I said that there was a certain car built that didn't fit the mold that all the experts in one accord would say not it wasn't. This came after someone was saying that there wasn't a big block blazer built after one of the fellas said that he had seen and drove one.

For whatever reason I expect everyone to read and understand english or what I'm thinking or both. You would think that I would know better.

I chose the GTO for a reason, it is a muscle car and I know that the modern muscle car crowd is pretty ****. I didn't really expect to catch any fish with that bait but ya just never know.

If you go back and read I beleive that I did back off at one point and say that it may not have been called a GTO wagon. But for all intents and purposes if it retains the GTO package and it is a Piontiac it is a GTO. I can all but garentee that if the old fella showed up at a GTO gathering with his do***entation that he would be let in where as if I showed up with a base model Tempest I would probably be turned away.

As for the Judge I did mention that I didn't know if the dealer had stuffed the 350 in it just that I couldn't see any reason why he would. Face it if he shoved the 350 in the car it wouldn't be that big a deal to put the big motor back in it to make it a more desirable car to sell.

All of this is a mute point. I suppose. The world is still an oblique and not really round and everyone will still beileve that it is round unless they crawl out of there box and take a look for themselves.

 

Ok ******, you stand your "english reading" ground and I'll keep my apparently illiterate foothold. Keep chasing your white whale there Ahab, I'm sure you saw it.

So back to the original question....

Nothing super extravagant, but I would have gone with a '64 Olds 442, F-85 (not Cutl***) sedan w/ "heavy duty" (convertible) frame, 3.90 gear.

 

For me a 63 Dodge 330 with a Wedge 426.

If I was looking at 64's it would be hard to pic between a 64 Dodge or Plymouth 426 or a 64 GTO post sedan.

My great love of 62 Bel Air bubble tops with 409's would have me looking at those in 63 trying to get a good deal on a left over 62. I would have a hard time picking between a 62 bubble top and a 63 Dodge.

 

That actually is a pretty cool wagon though...I have never seen that one.

I like how he had Judge like decals made that say "The Wagon."

Cool PHANTOM though.

 

I think ,,if we could go back to '63-'64 ,,i'd like to buy my Red '64 GTO post sedan back ,,389 Tri-Power / 4-speed / 3;90 posi ,,i drove the wheels offa that car ,,two 8,000 miles round trips to Iowa from Alaska ,,down 1400 miles of gravel in the Yukon,,plus street racin' it every Fri & Sat nite,,and runnin' it in C/Stock at Polar Drag Strip ,,and it was my one and only daily driver,all that abuse and it never brooke anything ,,

 

Re: the "GTO wagon controversy: real, phantom or imaginary?" ... bear in mind that at that time, GM and their compe***ors were rather lax in what went in as an order and what came off the ***embly line (ISO 9000? We don't need no stinkin' ISO 9000....). More than a couple of surprises wound up on the street.

Back in the day, I knew a guy who had worked for Chrysler at a Regional or Zone Office in about 1970 or '71. One of his responsibilities was to work the "car bank" ... telemarketing dealers trying to unload factory new car inventories. He said that one of his toughest sales was a Dodge wagon, plum or purple exterior with a green interior, hemi and a 4-speed. Apparently, someone had ordered it to run in a NHRA Super Stock cl*** and the deal went belly up. With insurance on performance cars going through the roof at that time and a gas shortage on the horizon, nobody wanted that thing!

 

Back in the '60's ,,up there in Alaska ,,the Stingly family raced Pontiacs ,,Father and two Sons ,,the Sons ran Catilinas ,,one with a 389 ,the other w' a 421 ,the Father ran a Bonneville Wagon with a 421 ,,they ran in three different Stock Cl***es ,,my buddy up there that i still keep in contact with ,told me here while back ,,Mr Stingly still has ALL of those old special ordered Pontiacs sittin' in his yard ,,,all still in mint condition ,and on special Race Days ,,they take em to the Alaska RaceWay Park ,,formaly Polar Dragway ,,and run em sum more ,,they'll be racin' there this weekend ,,it's the Alaska State Championships ,,,try www.alaskaracewaypark.com after tomorrow and you can click on the Photo Page ,,

 

Thanks for posting this. Watching the videos brought back fond memories of my $100 '66 Catalina, 389 4 bbl, dual exhaust with the three on the tree. It didn't run like this car but from a 30 roll that car surprised a few muscle cars. I'm smiling just remembering it all.

 

Something to chew on in regards to the original post topic of a 409 1/2 ton, is to consider all of the coach builders of the time that bought rolling cab ch***is or fleet units for specific modifications. The real oddities are rail, road service, fire, government and law enforcemnet units while not factory they are original. All of this and they did sell to the public too. Big block 4wds, double cabs, limos even little stuff like factory tachs and deluxe trim options are common finds. All it took was the right guy in the right place at the right time. Try the airport limo from Akron Municiple, it's 58 Chevy 1/2 suburban in the eyes of any record keeper but it's the length of two full size vans, and had a 348 and a hydro in it. By the way not only is the ch***is different on a 1 ton panel (no 1 ton suburbans) but the roof is as well, it doesn't make good sense but it happened.

Not to stir the pot back up but the problem with "PHS, and Jim Wagners said so" even on the true factory built side of things (enter hero here) is that such and such wasn't there for every single build at every plant and records rarely tell the whole story. Ask him about driving a SS 60 Pontiac or a cool story of where an ad slogan came from sure. If you want the option list on your 68 Bird PHS is great. Get into anything beyond the norm and both wave their hands in the air that didn't happen. There are fakes clones and posers but real one offs exsist and the self advertised experts were not the only ones there to make it possible.

I still see a guy on the line letting everyone know his car is coming through next, so do a "good job" and put this this and this on it.

 

For the record, I still feel you are mistaken but we will never know.

If you think I was calling you a liar I am sorry. I disagree with you but I do not think you are a liar.

 

We have BTW a GTO wagon nearby. Maybe he will hop on and set the record straight but probably not. He is having too much fun.

 

Well,,i'm not a Liar and I'm surely not mistaken ,,i drove a new '69 Blazer with a factory 396 BB for 6 months as a test project for Alaska Sales n Service and the Factory,, ,,winter of '68 & '69 ,in Alaska ,,
in '69 ,,in Des Moines ,Iowa ,,my Dads Boss bought a vacation home in the Rockies ,,above Denver ,,he wanted a 4 wheel drive to take out there ,,my Dad went to Crescent Chevrolet ,,there in Des Moines where they bought all their Company Cars ,,and on the showroom floor was a new '69 Blazer ,,w' a 396 BB ,,my Dad bought it for his boss ,,,it was registered either in Wright Percival's name or Green Colonial Furnace Co.,,Mr Percival died in '78 ,,in '79 my Dad helped sell off the Estate ,,that Blazer was for sale ,,less than 6,000 miles on it and it had been kept in a heated garage ,,i tried to get my Dad to sell it to me ,,,but ,,it was sold to someone in the Denver area for $3,000 bucks ,,
if you Google '69 Blazers ,,it clearly states ,,"the only dufference between the '69 Blazer and the '70 Blazer was the Grille ,and the 396 Fender Emblems changed to 400" quote un quote ,,
now ,,i don't know how long Dealers mantain their records ,,and since Crescen Chevrolet has been sold to another outfit ,,anyoone in the central Iowa area might be able to check with the new owner ,,OR ,,surely Iowa DMV could go back and run the Percival or Green Colonial name and get a VIN Number ,,
I've already tried to get do***ents from Alaska Sales N Service and they said they didn't keep any records that far back ,,