the more i look at the frame i built ( 2x4 square tube with a 4" 1/4 inch thick tube in front with my suicide perch on it) the more mounting the radiator and shocks, and all other odds and ends are going be be a huge pain in the ass. like a ton of others on here i "thought" that suicide front end would be cool as hell, but now i am having second thoughts. i have a spring behind 4" drop tube axle with hairpins from speedway. my thought now is to cut the perch tube off the front of my frame and weld the front part of 1 of my stock frames from stock crossmember forward with horns to my existing 2x4 frame i built. (yes i know i will have to taper the frame up a bit to match the old frame section) is this a decent solution to my dilema, or is there a better route to go. i really dont wanna cut up the work i have completed, but i want this car too have the look im going for also.
ive built three frames using square tubing. two of which are suicide and one im doing now with quarter eliptic. im not sure what problems you are running into. for upper shock mounts on my T i used F-1 shock towers with ears welded on them for headlight mounts. for bottom mounts i just burned some tabs onto the wish bones and bolted through them. radiator mounts should be easy if you built your frame wide enough for the core to sit between the rails. i just dont see the benifit to swapping out your front member for a stocker. let me know what your specific issues are and maybe i can help.
the wheelbase is just long, and i was trying to find a way to cover the perch, but my dad likes the way i built it, and it is his car, i am building it for him, i guess im just thinking too much, i should just leave well enough alone. it is very strong, the only real issue i have is that the tie rod is too close too the perch tube, if me and a buddy bounce on the frame (no motor in the frame yet) together we at 400 pounds, the frame taps the tie rod. so i guess my first thought was to take a notch out of the perch pipe, and box weld it back in flat, or add a spacer under the perch, on top of the spring. what ideas would anyone have as far as that goes. my wheelbase is at about 115 the way it sits, actual distance between cowl and shell is at 48, that is half inch shorter than stock, but i could set wheelbase longer, as i have not mounted the body or rear suspension yet. i just hear so many opinions about how wheelbase being too long looks cartoonish, suicide front ends only look good on t's, etc etc. i would like the wheelbase longer, so i dont have too recess the firewall, but i guess i will never know untill i get wheels on it, the motor in, and the body on. but then again, my dad says you are building it for us, no body else. it is a 29 model a coupe by the way.
tie rod too close to the perch tube? flip flop your spindles so the steering arms sit out front of the axle. go long! i love the way my '28 A C-dan looks with a stretched out sui front end on it. cartoonish? blah. and besides, didn't we all like cartoons when we were kids?
if you look at my other posts, there are some pics of the frame and other parts. sweddy eddy, i like your way of thinking, screw it, im gonna keep it the way i got it. i can switch the steering arms the other way easy enough, but i got the arms for cross steer setup. i guess i can just get a traditional steering arm for the drag link and mount my vega box the traditional way? the cross steer was the direction i wanted to go because i have heard the steering is alot better ( less bump steer). i have a new vega box and mounting plate, so i can still go any direction i want. i was just kinda set on cross steer. the pic with the body on was after i finished the main inside channeling, still alot of finish bracing to do. it looks long, but the measurement from the cowl to the perch tube (keep in mind the radiator is being mounted behind the tube cowl side) is 30 inches, now that the radiator is mocked into place, it is 27.5 inches from cowl to radiator if i leave body where i want it for a 115 wheelbase, but like i said, no rear suspension, nor any body mounts done yet, so its a blank canvas per say.
another option for your tie rod issue would be to bump your front axle forward about an inch and a half or so. it means rebuilding your sui perch but thats easier than refiguring the whole thing. and twenty seven inches seems like a tiny engine compartment. you'll be doghousing your firewall to cram anything in there.
Suicide perch and spring behind is going to make it very low and need the engine mounted high for clearance requiring a tall trans tunnel and not much foot room. I think you should give up a little lowness and shorten the wheelbase slightly by going spring over. Just my thoughts.
the whole front end is new and i really dont want too return it, i can make it work, with my measurements, the firewall will only need a 3.5 inch recess, and im running a saginaw 3 speed manual, so not much tunnel will be needed if any. and the motor wont be super high, the top edge of the oil pan will be just below the top frame rail.
Before you go switching things around backwards you might want to do a search on "Ackerman". Doing it wrong is easy.... Why can't you bend your steering arms down a bit for additional clearance? To see how far you can go you can stack washers till you get to the interference point with the radius arm and test to see if its enough, BEFORE you bend the arms. You CAN'T just use washers and say "good enough" though. That would be dangerous and look stupid besides. Personally, I don't like those caliper brackets. With just a single bolt on either side it seems like they will focus a lot of strain on the thin center section under hard braking and might spread open or even split. I like stout when it comes to brakes and steering.
The tie rod has an easy solution. Just use the dropped steering arms. I have split wishbone with a 4" dropped axle and spring behind. I bought the 4-3/4 dropped arms and the tie rod clears the bones.
I'm not a fan of Model As with suicide front ends, but that doesn't look bad - as a couple of the others already said, just extend the perch a bit to get the steering tie rod clear of the front of the frame, and Bob's yer uncle.
no offense but i see all kinds of problems with this setup..i guess you could build it the way you want,i'm not tellin you "how" to build your car but a vega box wouldn't be able to work with this setup due to mounting location of the box relative to the drag link parallel.In order for the vega box to work in proper geometry,the steering tie rod needs to be as close to parallel to the drag link in order to help with bump steer.For a suicide front end,like you have,both spindles will have to be flipped Left and right,so the tie rod is out front and you'll have to use a traditional steering setup,reason is for steering rod clearance to oil pan/etc.The boxes to use are early mustang,early F1,reversed corvair.Stacking washers is dangerous i don't recommend it
wait a minute here, yes i can bend the steering arms down about an inch, and i could add another piece of 3/8 plate to the bottom of my perch, problem solved. also, all these caliper brackets and steering arms are over 3/8 of an inch thick. i dont forsee a breakage issue in the future. also, the vega box will be in a cross steer configuration, at least 3 inches from touching any part of the oil pan, and it will be very close to parrallel with the tie rod, not that it matters, as almost every straight axle 4wd truck has a drag link at a down angle, sometimes a rearward down angle and it seems too work correctly, i dont know everything, but i am a auto tech that has been in the industry for 20 years, thanks for all your inputs, it is helping me alot. but it seems that alot of the fng and newbies like to help, and alot of the aliance members, and long time members just like too say what is wrong with others ideas, and like to start rants. im just making an observation here, not trying too cause problems.
I must not be understanding what i'm looking at and nobody else has said anything, but it looks to me that your spindle is lower than the frame? Your frame is going to be 10" or so off the gound? I realize it is sitting on jack stands now but with weight it'll drop maybe an inch, so what you see is about what you'll get.
oj I also seen the same problem,by the time theres weight there,the tie rod will bang the front crossmember with suspension travel.The guy clearly isn't looking for guidance,the vega box mounting will be an issue in the future i can see...
sorry if i offended anyone, but yes, i am looking for advice, and opinions, and i value them. i have discussed this with my father this morning, and we have decided that i am going too cut off the tube, and weld the front section of an existing model a frame, from crossmember forward including the horns, to my 2x4 rails, it will lift the frame, add horns for shock mounts, and make the frame and car look much more correct when it is done. again, sorry if i offended anyone, im just really trying to do this right the first time. and the frame is a bit over 10 inches yes, the axle is at 8.5 inches off the ground too get the ride height i wanted
The setup you have now actually works extremly well. A car I built about four years ago used the very same setup and it worked beautifly for many miles now. (Search- Thanks Wheels of Time Koz for pics). It's now owned by '52 F1 on here. I'm a certified welder and my concern for welding together two disimilar steels together is justified, especially when one is probably well rusted and flex hardened unpredictably over the years. In my opinion you had it right the first time, you just needed to refine a few details. I've built about 60 rod chassis now and have used both cross steering and parallel setups and in my opinion the cross steer is vastly better on the open road although I know both work well if you have geometry right. Theres a reason you don't see a lot of frames with grafted on front ends. I'm finishing up my '35 pickup right now, cross steer and a semi suicide front end, (cross tube with perch under), so you know what I trust. If you want the car lower why not massage a swept Z in the front end? My two cents.
my issue is it is a bit too low, i would like too add a spacer bolted too my spring pack on the top, below the perch and that would alleviate almost all my issues with this setup, i would love too add the front frame just to make things easier, i guess i am very confused with this setup, i like it, but so many people have so many opinions, thanks for that last reply about saying it will work well, maybe you could give me a lil advise in the refinements too my design, so it all works out well for me. thanks again
not trying to rag,i didn't want to come off that way i just want to help..Koz is right you had it correct the first time,just flip the steering arms let to right so the tie rod is out front then you'd be ok..then you'd have to get a steering box for a traditional steering setup to work with a suicide front end.Problem solved.
I've built quite a few chassis also,not 60 but getting there..Koz,i see your concern with dissimiliar metals but as long as everything is clean,edges chamfered for penetration i've used many "old" parts on n"new" 2X4" .120 walled chassis with absolutely no probs.
my thoughts on welding the old front section on, just crossmember and horns section is that it would raise the front a bit, alleviating my issues with the steering, also will have the horns, too attach shock mounts too, and i could put the radiator and shell just behind the axle on top of the crossmember the spring is inside of, giving it a more period correct look, and i could move my motor forward so i wont have to recess firewall, it would be one change that would fix like 10 issues im having. maybe not the best cure, but it wouldnt be too tough, i know it will need good penetration(easy part) and i know i will need to fish plate it very well (also easy) . i think this will be my solution. any input is appreciated
Earlier I suggested to make the spring perch about 2" longer, but since you have an old front front section I agree with you on that being your solution (plus it looks like you got the knowledge, and skill to do it right).
your only problem is that before you built it you should of asked the HAMB how to do it.(ha ha) What ever you decide to do will be just fine & that is how we all learned -mostly by trying . You probably have the right idea grafting on the front frame of the A & remember "if it looks right it probably is". Nice build.
4" x 1/4" wall is a bit OTT to be honest, I prefer 2.5" or 3" x 1/8" wall with the side rails tapered, looks less klunky.
the problem is, i read brianangus post about building a traditional hot rod frame about 100 times and still did it the way i did. oh well, this is the best way too learn, the hard way. makes things have alot more meaning if you have to do it the hard way. in my 20 years in the automotive industry as a tech, the best lessons i ever learned was doing it the wrong way then having too make it right. that way you never forget what you did wrong.
Thicker than I thought on the brackets! Sounds good. As for your last comments...I will call it as I see it, but I don't feel as though I fall into that category...but IF you do, I'm sorry for giving that impression. Hope you get it all figured out...
I agree with just about everthing that has been posted here with the exception of the putting the steering arms out front. This will pretty much destroy any front end geometry, (ackerman ), which means the inside wheel needs to turn a tighter radius than the outside wheel or one of the wheels, the inside one, will scrub. This results in seriously shitty handling and a downright dangerous condition if you have to nail the hooks while in a turn. Total Performance used to compensate for this by setting the arms way outside the kingpin line which won't work with most wheels and axles. There's been a ton of threads on here concerning this principle. As Primeisnotacrime states the frame can be grafted if you know what your doing! I get far too many frames in that have well meaning alterations done which are down right suicidal! You can most certainly weld up a chassis without fishplates and still be perfectly workable if done right. If not done right you risk a lot more than "I'll do it over". Every time you do chassis work you take the lives of the passengers and those around the car in you hands. Is it worth it to do anything but the best work? Just my pompus opinion but sooner or later the powers that be will take notice of some of the crap being built, (generally not by Hambers who know enough to ask), but by the folks who think they know it all, and all we need is one person hurt or killed and this will end. Whatever you do just make sure the engineering is sound and the fabrication is top notch. Not overbuilt, just sound.
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