ford model T body schematics

im looking to build a model T in the near future, origionals that arent pitted through or havent already been converted into rat/hot rods are hard to find, and im looking for an origional style 2 or 4 door sedan

my question is, does anyone have or know where i can get the schematics or plans for building the wooden structure for the model T sedan body from scratch? the plans for the doors would be nice too.

for this build the frame will also be fabricated, and for the engine im going with a 2.3 liter inline four cylinder pinto engine, im going with this engine because its also a ford, its displacement is similar to that of the origional fords, also its easier to find parts for, i can modify it for a 16:1 compression ratio which will be good as i intend to run this vehicle on ethanol... lastly, it can be fitted with a hand crank which is a nice feature because i will have a bare minimum reliance on batteries, meaning i want this vehicle to be able to run without a batter, so itll be fitted with a magneto to power the core functions of the vehicle...

so does anyone know where i can get schematics for the body?

 

try looking through here http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=438877&highlight=model+drawing

 

LOL you had me until the 16:1 compression, no battery and hand crank starting. Hope you have arms the size of tree trunks and steel reinforced thumbs.

Mark

 

lastly, it can be fitted with a hand crank which is a nice feature because i will have a bare minimum reliance on batteries, meaning i want this vehicle to be able to run without a batter, so itll be fitted with a magneto to power the core functions of the vehicle...

How are you going to run lights, etc?
There were people offering plans to build the wood framing for "T"s, but I don't know if they're still available. It is a daunting task and you will need much more than Grampa's old rip saw and chisels to build it. Then there is the sheetmetal work. If you are an accomplished wood worker and tin knocker then go for it. I build custom cabinets and would not consider trying to build a body from scratch, but that's me.

 

16:1, no battery, hand crank? what? why? Hell, I think you would get more attention if you got rid of the engine and went all batteries. If your'e going to do some thing as crazy radical as you propose why not? It would be fast as hell. Can you do a proper intro? Are you Jay Leno?

 

Thats a good un',easier to find parts for...lol..You can get almost anything you want in repop for the Model T,There is a person doing a 5 bearing block/crank for them!

go to here : http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/118802.html

 

Justin,

Body plans come up on Espay every so often. There are a couple books by Murray Fahnestock that are invaluable- Model T Speed Secrets/Fast Ford Handbook and Model T Speed and Sport (Amazon, etc are good places to find them).

Also, check out www.nwvs.org for LOTS of info on speedsters, etc.

 

yes, it would be fitted with a hand crank, to both stick with classic aesthetics, as well as function as a backup starting mechanism should the primary starter fail, and how would i run lights.. easy, magneto/generator so that should the battery actually fail, the primary components can be powered without it, such as the fuel pump, ignition, and lighting

it will have an onboard battery kept charged with a magneto to power additional, non-critical components such as the starter motor, and possibly an AC

and for anyone whos been involved with alternative fuel, 16:1 is a lot more efficient for alcohol than standard compression ratios, the pinto engine is capable of such compression as various pinto engines have been converted to efficiently burn alcohol and hydrogen, this making the pinto engine a damn good choice for an analog to the origional model T engine.

its obviously not going to be an entirely traditional model T, but one with a few modern tweaks such as the better engine, quite possibly disc breaks on the front and rear, i want to take the schematics for the wood frame and build a tube steel alternative, so it would be safer in a wreck for one

and since im looking for something not only incredibly reliable, but rather simple and easy to repair, i was thinking of using some more readily available off the shelf parts where possible, like the headlight buckets, the rims (though they will still be quite narrow) plywood interior panels veneered or carpeted, and possibly lexan for the windows

the reason im going with alcohol is im looking to start growing sugar beets soon to be converted into ethanol as a fuel source, one acre of sugar beets produces roughly 500 gallons of ethanol which is far, far more than i actually consume in a year.... though its not a good idea for large scale fuel production, for those of us willing to farm 1/4-1/2 acre a year its pretty much a no brainer

and yes, i understand there are some specialty shops that sell model T engine components, but thats special order stuff, its not like i can walk into a NAPA or an autozone and order what i need.

friend of mine has been rebuilding engines for about 50 years now, and hes rebuilt a number of large displacement (up to 455 cubic inches) engines that were indeed hand crankable, so to do it to a pinto engine is all a matter of putting the mechanism onto the flywheel

 

...

 

"and since im looking for something not only incredibly reliable, but rather simple and easy to repair, i was thinking of using some more readily available off the shelf parts where possible, like the headlight buckets, the rims (though they will still be quite narrow) plywood interior panels veneered or carpeted, and possibly lexan for the windows"

When you are talking about "not incredibly reliable" and go on to say that's why you want off the shelf for easy repair, I dont' get things like headlight buckets or plywood interior panels.

I can't remember the last time I got stranded because of a faulty rare door panel or a defective headlight bucket?

Maybe order a speedway motors kit and have all off the shelf stuff, reliable, built faster and cheaper??
Call it the master card roadster!

 

you read the message wrong.. and bad things do happen to good interiors, so having an interior thats not particularly difficult to replace is beneficial as well, especially considering itll be plywood covered with some sort of a yet to be decided carpeting

 

i guess ill have to contact all of those people with 16:1 pinto engines running alcohol or hydrogen that their engines dont exist... arizona state university is going to be pissed

 

I don't think anyone doubts the fact that an engine can be or has been built at 16:1 (especially with university funding), it's the whole hand crank of a 16:1 engine.
Unless you look like the hulk you are going to need a compression release to be able to crank that thing.

 

typically that would raise concern, however theyve been hand cranking diesel engines well into the 60s, which have a much higher compression ratio and probably more torque as well... so considering that i dont see why it wouldnt work...

anyway, this isnt about the engine, let me worry about that, i do have a history in engineering and have worked on alternative fuel engine designs in the past, and i could make the body from scratch without plans, but im actually quite a perfectionist and would really like it to be spot on to an origional.. however lately ive been considering going my own way and making one a little larger

either way i do intend to use steel tubing rather than wood for the body... would give me sort of a built in, concealed behind the panels type roll cage

 

You seen to be relatively intelligent so, FWIW, the word you seem to struggle with is "original" not "origional"
Origional, axel, breaks, rims instead of wheels..........drives me nuts.

 

The hand crank diesel engines have a compression release built in to them. At least in my very limited experience with running them.

Either way, if you go ahead with this project take lots of pictures and post the build.
I would be very interested in seeing it go together and seeing what goes right and wrong.

You got me thinking about how I would go about try something like that (If I thought I had all the skills) and I would be interested to see how you do it.

It would be a learning experience for me no matter how it turned out.

The factory method probably involved a bunch of jigs that would take more work to replicate than building it free form would take.

If you have some good wood working experience, you should be able to do the frame work, then comes the metal work.

 

Model Ts were designed to run on "alternate" fuels like alcohol. Pintos weren't. We have methanol fueled midget race cars and they are very demanding on maintenance as the alcohol corrodes everything if you don't keep after it. Ford 2300 motors are the ancestors of today's very high buck Esslinger midget motors and even $32,000 race motors can't support 16:1 CR.
Back in the mid 1970s I accidently ran 16:1 in a Chevy II. We got very good at changing head gaskets before we figured out why it was happening. Damn that car was fast when it ran though.
You'd be more likely to succeed with a newer E85 capable motor. All mechanical sounds good until you have to rely on it every day. We're spoiled these days. The Focus motor in our current race car is as reliable as a street car after 40+ nights of hard racing.

 

well sharps, i have no doubt it can be done, using my friend as a consultant he agrees, and hes built and rebuilt countless of engines for racing, marine, farm, and even some old fighter plane engines, so if he says it can be done, i dont doubt it

ill have to go to a junkyard sometime and start collecting components, like a front and rear end preferably with modern disc brakes, the pinto donor, and materials to start fabricating the frame and body

for the time being the engine will probably remain a gasoline engine in standard 9:1 compression until i have a steady supply of ethanol which i intend to start producing myself, given the complete and entire lack of ethanol in my area

at this point im debating whether ill even go with factory schematics because im not entirely sure i want to go with the standard width, i might even widen it for a more comfortable interior.. who knows, its mostly in a design phase right now

 

This is a myth that has been repeated so many times and for so many years that it has become "fact". It is in books, it is told by docents at auto museums and even well know auto "experts" claim it to be true. The only problem is, it's bunk. All Fords were designed to run on good ol' gasoline. Of the 15 million Model "T"s built, none of the alcohol burning "T"s have ever surfaced nor is there any evidence of such a car in the Ford archives. Oh yeah, Tuckers didn't have a reverse gear

 

I'm really confused. You want to build an ethanol motor but think you need 16:1 for the street? What's wrong with 11 or 12:1 which is way more reasonable?

You want to do it yourself and make it "safer".....with a plywood interior and junk yard parts?

You want to be either "green" or self sufficient? I'm really confused.

The one I have the most problem with is that you trust a generator/mag but not a battery and starter? Last I looked, technology has continusouly improved with a battery and stopped with a generator and mag about ...oh...40 years ago. There is a reason hand cranks disappeared and starters continued to be improved.

My suggestion is that once they let you out of the "hospital", you continue your therapy and try to work your way back into civilization gradually.

Sorry, I just don't get it. You may just as well buy a Prius and put wide whites on it.

SPark

 

Son, you're gonna have the BATF down your a$$ for making 'shine. Ya gotta have a Federal license to make enthanol in any kind of quantity, I think. Help me out any of you Southern Boys?

 

I tried to make ethanol in the late 70's(with a Federal Permit)...but quickly realized that it needed to be almost 100% or the water would seperate....not good...d32

 

...

 

11:1 and 12:1 is better than standard 8 and 9 to one, but its not as good as 14:1 to 16:1, and the properties of alcohol greatly increase the efficiency of the fuel as compression raises... raising to such compression ratios isnt typically done on gasoline because its dangerous, and very damaging to the engine, and pre-ignition is much more common, but its well suited for running alcohol... thats basically the main difference between an alcohol and a gasoline engine... so your question of why not run it on something even lower would be like asking why not run gasoline on 4:1? or diesel on less than 16:1?... well, because the properties of the fuel make it more suited to a specific ratio

all PROPERLY converted engines have higher compression ratios like that on total conversion engines, lower compression ratios are common for flex fuel engines which however arent optimized for alcohol, nor gasoline, theyre just capable of running both at a mediocre level... my goal is a total conversion, since i wont be using gasoline ever again once this is done, i see no reason not to go with the higher compression

and using tube steel rather than wood does in fact make it safer should it ever roll, and using parts that are more commonly found simply make it easier and cheaper to fix later on, for example, if i were to use common dana 30 or 35 rear end, or a ford 8 or 9 inch, these can be found anywhere

another answer to one of LM14s questions... why not use plywood for interior panels covered with an automotive carpeting?

also, if i wanted to be totally green, id use electricity from the wind turbines my land will have to power the house... but i like the option of traveling long distances should i feel like it as just about every major city has atleast one ethanol station, so i can go from one to the next

so i apologize if my plan isnt to follow the same roots as many, and just chop the top, take off the fenders, and put a V8 into it... but why? so many people have done that, thousands have done that? whats the point on getting on my ass for actually doing something a little different? whats the fun in going where others have already been?

 

yes you can hand crank a damn pinto engine, get over it already glade.. and from which end do you think an engine is hand cranked from?... remember now, theres a device called the transmission on the other end of the engine

 

friendly AND whip smart....

 

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Ford/26-Ford-Tudor-DV-08_HHC_001.jpg thats the body style im after... i COULD go with a coupe, but ive decided i want a little more room.. considered a four-door sedan but decided this tudor gives me exactly what i need and exactly what i want

the hood and radiator i will probably buy aftermarket, and maybe the rims too if i can find some like that made out of metal... but absolutely, definitely thats the body style i want

 

If you are planning on running alcohol at any compression and with any starting method, do some serious research on gaskets and any non metal components used.

Not a huge hurdle but standard stuff will come apart.
Your carb will be a strainer for pouring fuel on the engine and the hoses will gum up the filter.

That's not a technology challenge since the stuff is all there and in use, you just have to do the research ahead.

As for the rest, like I said if you try this project take lots of pictures and post them.

 

i know all about conversion, and rubber lines are largely a no-no... i will first rebuild the engine with standard compression to run on gasoline for the time being, until im able to harvest sugar beets to start making alcohol, and then the pistons will go in which will be the primary source of compression increase... during the initial rebuild all rubber will be replaced, as with the fuel lines which will be metal, perhaps even copper, i want to have the frame, body, and probably even much of the interior done before the engine goes in, so the body specs are my biggest hurdle, do you know where i can find the specs to make the body in the photo described (its a '26 tudor)

 

What happened to the schematics stuff???