Pontiac Blower Engine Build. I have started this thread to conical the build of my blower engine for the front engine dragster. After ½ year I have purchased the block. It is a 1969 WT block that has not been touched by a machine shop. Main Journals are 3.000 inches. The rest of what is in the block does not matter as it will all be replaced. I have started to look at cranks. I will not be stoking this engine. The Pontiac Rod Journal is 2.250 which I think is a Chrysler which would give me some options for rods. OHIO 3.750" Stroke, 3 Main Forged Crankshaft-2.250"(Pont.) Rod Journal They do make a forged crank with a chevy journal but it is stroked a little. **** 4.00" Stroke, 3" Main Forged Crankshaft-2.200"(BBC)Rod Journal Im not done looking, and have not found any destroked cranks. The direction this is going in is all forged lower end (rods are still up in the air on steel or aluminum) Kauffman 74cc D-ports milled down a little or the 64cc HP's, 8-71 blower with lots still up in the air. Feel free to comment I have thick skin.
You'll want aluminum rods for sure. Try Groden,I think it's GRP rods. I haven't run them but I've heard a lot of good things about them and they will be what I get next. His rods are billet and he keeps the billets in stock and can make rods per spec. I'm sure he can build something for ya.
At first glance that would seem to be correct. I am over building the engine and will detune it. With the aluminun you need to tear the engine down to check the rods, and for that matter the bearings. With a detuned overbuilt engine I could run som steel I beam rods and tear it down once a season. No deciesion has been made yet.
The Oliver billet rods are very good, a bit pricey, almost 1200. Cheaper good would be the Crower or Eagle. What compression are you shooting for with a 0 deck and 64 cc? Dry deck i'm ***uming?
I have recieved suggestions on compression ratio from 8:1 to 13:1. That discussion revolves around wheather the engine is working or the blower is working. It seems what is important is finial compression ration. I'm thinking of a ration of 9:1 to 9.5:1 static compression ratio. That may change You have me on dry deck, that is why I am posting here, educate me.
dry decking is when all coolant p***ages on the block deck surface are either welded shut or if possible they are pluged either screw in or clearence fitted and then the deck is milled true again the heads recieve the same treatment .now you don't have to worry about coolant coming out when the head gasket blows.there is a shop in n.y. that doese this.on your compression i would not run more then 8.5 in a stock pont.block the main webs don't like this much also make sure you run a lifter valley brace paul spots has them he also can give you a wealth of info on indians he runs a blown pont fed.good luck its a roit driving one
I ***ume from with your build you will be running race gas ? If you are, a good H-beam is all you need..... Why use an aluminium rod unles you are running alcohol or fuel....
Ok, My intention is to hard block the lower half of the engine but run coolant through the heads and upper half of the block. There are some dead runners in the block that we plugged and milled on the stroker engine. My understanding is the static compression ratio can go as high as 13.5:1 but than you can run ver little boost. I have been told that the combination of static compression ratio and boost is what you have to watch. Low compression and high boost, or high comgression and low boost. It is a question of do you work the engine or the blower. I do not have the answer for that as yet but I am leaning towards a static compression of 9:1 or 9.5:1. This is very critical with gas and not so much with alky.
I had originally intended to run gas and convert to alcohol. I have been convince that make little sense and will be going directly to alcohol.
Here's some info from a thread on what to do on the top end and some good info in general in boosting and compression especially for Pontiacs. I'm limited in experiance in boosted engines so i'll leave that to the experts. http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=622563&highlight=blower
I will add the o-ring to the list of items to be researched before any machining on the block takes palce. Thanks
Just a point of interest, before you O-Ring your head (and cutting a relief grove in the block ! This is a must in my opinion and "Art Chrisman" who I have talked with extensively regarding gas diggers during the nitro ban), however; contact Cometic Gaskets. Their gaskets are making O-Rings a thing of the past for your type of engine build..... I agree with you, build the motor to run on gas or alcohol from the beginning.... I am running a supercharged 392 on race gas in my nostlagic drag car and would not switch over to alcohol without numerous changes and expense, just for the change in fuel.... Now saying that, you do not have to run aluminium rods unless you have huge boost ! By the way, you also had one of the best build your FED, Keith aka: "ROOMAN" is simply the best.......
To date this is what I have found Crower I-Beam Rod CRO-6625PF 6.625 Pontiac Rods (Press-Fit) $699.00 Crower Sportsman Rods are I-Beam forged from 4340 steel. Machined with the same quality as all Crower products. Standard length 6.625 Pontiac journal with bushed or press fit .980 pin end. Their rated at 850hp+. $806 Oliver I-Beam Rod OLI-P6625PONT-8 Oliver 6.625 Pont. Billet I-Beam Rods w/ARP Bolts 2.250 r.j.-.980 Pins Bushed $1,195.00 Oliver steel billet - custom ordered Comes in stock 6.625 length with std. bearing diameter and full floating pin or in longer lengths with 2.200 bearing diameter $1300 I find no Carrillo Rod applications for Pontiac Butler Performance aluminum rods are of a special alloy - available in custom lengths. They are some of the strongest and lightest rods available for high horsepower race engines BRK-CUSTOM BP Aluminum Rods $849.00 G.R.P. billet aluminium - custom ordered Comes in any length, any pin size and any bearing diameter The BEST Alum. connecting rod on the market $925.00 Tomahawk, 5140 forging, I-Beam Pontiac 6.625 stock length connecting rods with 7/16" ARP 8740 thru-bolts. Average weight is 860 grms per rod. $240.00 Crank shaft Ohio OCR-44003750 OHIO 3.750" Stroke, 3"(400) Main Forged Crankshaft-2.250"(Pont.) Rod Journal $624.95 44003750P 4340 forged 400 3.750 stroke w/Pont Journal $575 44004210P 4340 forged 400 4.210 stroke w/Pont Journal $595 44004250P 4340 forged 400 4.250 stroke w/BBC Journal $595 Ohio 4340 forged 4.25 stroke with 3.00 main - BBC journal $ 625.00 **** SCA-4-400P-4000-6700-220 **** 4.00" Stroke, 3"(400) Main Forged Crankshaft-2.200"(BBC)Rod Journal $649.00 FORGED 4340 STANDARD WEIGHT FORGED **** 4-400P-4000-6700-2200 4400P40010 4340 STANDARD WEIGHT 4.000" 6.700" 2.200" Crower billet crankshafts are custom ordered in any stroke, main size and rod journal size. We can even order the in many different lightweight versions. $2700 Heads Kauffaman 74cc D-ports milled down a little complete $1900 with 310CFM Port work $400 64cc High Ports complete $2600 with 365 CFM Poet work $800
My thinking I would really like to run BBC bearings but that forces me into a stroker crank (4.000) So for right now, shot in the dark, I would choose (not ready to purchase) Ohio 44003750P 4340 forged 400 3.750 stroke w/Pont Journal (2.250) $575 The journal could be cut down to 2.200 (BBC) and I will be looking into that. I would prefer not to do that as it opens up a lot of other possible problems. Stock Pontiac rod and stroke are 6.625 and 3.750 1.77:1 Or **** **** 4.00" Stroke, 3"(400) Main Forged Crankshaft-2.200"(BBC)Rod Journal $647.00 They also offer the same crank as a Superlight Weight Crankshaft, 4.000 stroke 2.200 BBC rod journal, but I can find no price. rod to stroke 6.625 4.000 1.66:1 GRP connecting rods are either billet aluminum and billet ***anium. Eagle does not offer I-beam rods for Pontiac Carrillo does not offer Pontiac rods I find no Pontiac application at Argo Marine. (Just the way I am, I would like to purchase from a US company anyway (I know most parts come from overseas)) Rods, if I go with the stock Pontiac journal, I have little choice because they either are not I-Beam or want a 2.200 BBC journal, Crower Sportsman I-Beam 6.625, Pontiac journal with bushed.980 pin end. $806.00 Heads Kauffaman 74cc D-ports milled down a little complete $1900 with 310CFM Port work $400 Compression ratio 9 to 9.5:1, and under drive a 8-71 blower Alcohol injection I think this is only the start. Bearing and pistons need to be chosen. Those choices may require that the these choices be change and then we start all over.
In the PY, Online > General PONTIAC TECH > Pontiac Boost forum I started a thread called Pontiac Blower Engine Build http://forums.performanceyears.com/f...24#post4081524 All though the overall direction of that thread was a conversation on blocks, cranks, and rods. A detailed conversation is taking place offline about block strengths. That conversion was so filled with good information I thought I would share it here. Paul Spotts has been talking with me through e-mail and I asked his permission to post those e-mails here. I will also include a number of photos he has sent me. The e-mail that started the conversation went like this; I have been researching components for the future Blown Engine for the dragster So Im looking for people with past experience putting a blower on a Pontiac engine. Some things I know. I would like to see 750 HP, and as nostalgic looking as possible. I have purchased the foundation for this blower engine build. It is a 1969 Pontiac 400 block never touched by a machine shop. .. His response was; Hi Glenn What fuel do you intend to run? What fuel system? That makes a big difference I would use a 71-74 400 block - I am right now - they have thicker main webs - 4 bolt main caps a must doesn't matter on crank - 4" 4.210 stroke - I have a Ohio 4.210 stroke in mine - be prepared to have the mains and rods cut to .010 - I had to I run MGP aluminum rods - Biller miller is good as well, ran them before. For only 750-800 hp I'd run Eagle rods with arp 2000 upgrade Don't order parts till you have the proper compression figured - you can run the KB stoker pistons and so many choices there. I have a 63 421 4 bolt block for sale for $1500 - it has a modern starter adapter included if youre interested I also have a partial filled 4 bolt 67 SR block set up for solid roller $1500 as well - both blocks have factory 4 bolt caps If youre on a budget - you may want to consider iron d-ports - I ran them and made over 1000 hp with alky injection Good luck with your project Paul My response was Thanks for your reply. I will be running alcohol injection. I have purchased a 1969 400 block for the build. Current thinking is the **** 4 inch stroke crank. 2 inch stroke radius, 6.660 rod length, 1.580 piston, 10.240 deck height, 10.5:1 compression, .35 over bore (428 displacement). Oliver I-beam steel rods, rods are a sticking point as I do not want to have to tear down after 50 runs. HP is low at 750, so I think I can get away with the steel rods? Thoughts? His response was Sure you can use steel rods - but hardly anyone does that - I got 300 runs on my alum rods before teardown - not sure where you are getting the 50 runs. My rods are fine and I reused them on current build - plan on getting 200 more p***es On your formula - never had a 69 block with a 10.240 DH - they are usually 10.220ish after square decking - you will want the piston down the hole around .010 - .020 for alum rods. 0 deck ok on steel rods. I find its not worth trying to come up with your own formula but finding a 4" stroke piston and using that unless you want custom pistons and rods. I've used everything and the alky is very forgiving on parts with the right tune. I would suggest the KB937 piston - 434 CID 4.155 bore (.035 bore - there are larger bores available as well) 4" STROKE req 6.800 rod BBC 11.5 comp W 72 CC heads - so for 10.66 would be the compression with .010 below deck and a .050 head gasket. There is also the KB892 428 piston, but uses stock Pontiac journal and rod length My old set up used a 4" stroke SRP piston and BME alum rods - not recommended for blown alky, but lasted longer than the cranks and blocks did! I made 1000 hp with that set up. I also completely filled my block - would suggest the same. I broke every 69-70 block - I like the thicker mains of the newer blocks - not a common knowledge thing out there - just compare your 69 block to a 71-74 - you will see Most important advice: Spend the money on your fuel system and tune up. If you don't - you will ruin everything. I'm direct with Kinsler (best in my opinion) and when they set up my system I never had an issue. I rushed to get out to Norwalk and didn't have them update my system. I meant to call them and go over it, but had too much going on and was thrashing to get out to Ohio. Big mistake. All I did was switch heads (Kre 225 cfm d-ports - awesome heads) and with the new higher cfm head and different combustion chamber I was way off on the tune and I hurt the heads and melted the cometic head gaskets - I was 14 numbers off jet size and 25 psi fuel pressure too low! I can guarantee you will hurt the engine if its not set up by a professional - most important money spent - learned my lesson. Its why you don't see allot of blown alky Pontiacs, and many of the ones you do hurt the engines. I would be more then glad to build it for you as well - I've built many of them Paul My response was It is my intent to build this myself at a local engine builders shop with him looking over my shoulder. I have talked with him and he is willing to do that, that includes all the machining (this is not the first engine I have put together, but the first with this horse power, and never a blower engine. His response was Ok on posting Make sure every machining process is done - line hone, square decking balancing, cleaning etc etc. I deal with one of the best machine shops around this area - it took me 3 shops to find this shop and I only deal with them - extremely important. Machine shops are like body shops - there are so many iffy ones, bad ones ok ones are top notch ones. The equipment is important as well - there are ****py machines and high end ones. Most shops do not have a Pontiac torque plate, proper line hone bars, etc etc. My response was On the blocks, it was my understanding the 68 thru 72 were the ticker blocks? His response was Common misinformation - the 67's are very strong - 68-70 are ok - the 71-74 (select ones it seems) have thicker webs Here are some pics of my build - I was going to post this on the PY board, but I'm getting very busy again I sent him some pictures of my block, and I see you like Kauffman heads, as do I. This will be my second build using them. I have been to their shop See the bottom of the page in this link http://www.leverfamilysite.com/1978_...2009_07_29.htm Stroker build http://www.leverfamilysite.com/1978_...2009_08_02.htm http://www.leverfamilysite.com/1978_...2009_08_09.htm http://www.leverfamilysite.com/1978_...2009_08_17.htm First run down the track http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guRUv...layer_embedded I will repost the information you have p***ed on to me to PY with the appropriate credit, and include the pictures. And he responded Your block is a real 69 wt - 1969 GTO 4 speed. 063 # is engine unit number - no id on that. 69 blocks do not have id like 70's (mine) I usually do not use GTO blocks for performance build ups - they are worth money to the restorers If you look close on pic 7 and 8 attached you will see the mains are solid and go straight down - the 69 block is stepped back or goes thinner below the main cap area. Those blocks tend to crack and the #2 main web There are many slight differences in the blocks throughout the years and there were several companies casting them for Pontiac as well. I think they used 1 mold for 455's and 400's in around 1972 and machined them different with different caps. They had better machining and QC in the 70's from what I am seeing. My response was Only picture #8 was attached. So I should resale this block and look for another? What should I look for? In an earlier e-mail you stated I have a 63 421 4 bolt block for sale for $1500 - it has a modern starter adapter included if youre interested I also have a partial filled 4 bolt 67 SR block set up for solid roller $1500 as well - both blocks have factory 4 bolt caps But the gustiest of these past e-mails is that the 71-74 (select ones it seems) have thicker webs
Well today started out bad but got better. The dragster was supposed to make it's trip home this Friday, but will be delayed as the paint is not right yet. The season is over so the decission has been made to remove the deadline so that the paint can be completed with out pressure. The 1970 Ram Air III block had some rust in the cylinders. There was some concern that there would be pitting. The block was cleaned and put in the hone machine (with out pressure checking) the cylinders were just honed to knock off the surface rust. Once that was done the worst cylinder measured 4.123. Pitting was visable, but the general consenses is, that will be removed when bored 20 to 30 over. This is really good news as this is the second block purchased for this project and was purchased 350 miles from here. This evening the "deal" on the blower was agreed upon and on Thursday night I will be picking up the 8-71 Little Field, retro, High helix, pie cut, stripped, coated for alcohal, blower, with the plate, hat, injectors, distrubution block, barrel valve. The only things not included are the belt, snout, intake, pump, pulleys All in all a bad day turned into a good day. The block will be pressure check in the morning and if all goes well the machine work will start. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
Hey, great thread! Also like the pics from your site and knowledge shared by Paul Spotts. The guy certainly knows WTF he's doing, IMO. Makes my paltry 389s pretty boring... I'll probably be watching over on PY since I am there a lot...
Ok, for your review and Comments, suggestions, input???? This is the set up I have come up with after much discussion on the Pontiac blower build. Kauffman aluminum 74 CC heads, 2.11/1.77 valve arrangement, solid roller camshaft (not yet specked.), ***anium retainers, H-11 springs and 600 series valves. For a flat top piston, Aluminum Rods (not yet specked.), **** forged crank 4400p40010, 4 inch stroke, 2.200 BBC Rod Journal, cylinders bored 35 over (to get a standard Chevy oversize of 4.155 bore). With an original Wenzler tunnel ram Intake converted to a blower intake for a 8-71 LittleField 8-71 Little Field, retro, pie cut, blower with strips, and high helix, Mallory 4, Enderle 80-A1 pump, mechanical alcohol injection. Comments, suggestions, input????
We ran Pontiacs in our oval track car and had in the area of 13.5+:1 compression and found a few critical things that should be considered. 1) Have the block milled-The deck from the factory was wavy as heck and you only have 4 bolts around each cylinder. 2) Use a Cloyes true Roller timing set- Pontiacs tend to eat chains 3) 34 degrees total spark lead (Advance) If we tried to run 36 we would lift a gasket 4) Keep the RPM low...it ain't a Chevy and with the best factory cast iron heads (Ram Air V excluded) the motor stopped pulling after 6,200 or so. Granted the new aftermarket heads are better and you will have a pump on top but with the down turned exhaust ports the engine has to work real hard to get the air out. Also, when you consider the surface speed of those big old mains it can get dicey trying to pull big revs. 5) These ****ers are torque monsters and you can put a lot more cam than the lil' Chevy's and still run like jack the bear from the bottom end up to 5,200-5,800.
Block will be decked. Double roller timeing chain for sure I have been running 28 degrees, burned a piston and spun a rod bearing at 36, learned my lesson My limiter will be set at 6,000, shift at 5,800 Used a 400 block because of the 3 inch main size All very good points Thanks
Ok, it has been awhile since there was an update on the blower engine. I have ordered for the blower engine, Kauffman Racing High Port heads, 64 CC, 2.200 intake, 1.750 exhaust, ***anium retainers, 10 degree locks, h-11 springs, 380 CFM port work, 1200 series Ferrrea valves, five angle valve job. Best of everything except for the valves, I did not get the ***anium valves. Both banks of the block have been hard blocked. Once this is fully cured (28 days) we will start the machine work on the block. I have decided against using the Wenzler Tunnel ram and have ordered a BDS blower intake. I will make a setback plate that incorporates a burst panel.
Using the BDS or an early Thompson intake will definately look better on the car, and more nostalgic too. What is about this set back plate for burst panel? I have modified a BDS manifold for Pontiac for a customer to use a burst panel and not used a set back. or is this just something you want to do setting it back?
The blower I have is a retro blower (opening is in the front). That needs to be centered on the engine to get even distribution of the gas across all cylinders.
The Jalopy Journal
