Hello, i've been mostly a lurker on this site but i guess its time to post. Im in the military and my darling wife knowing i love old cars, just recently bought me a 1950 for custom deluxe with a flathead while i was away. (shes the best!) so i get home and this thing is pretty legit! its not that bad off and seems to be pretty solid. it has its bumps here and there but mostly pretty solid... i start it up and everything i could want to work, works! so after i start it up i notice a bit of smoking out he back tail pipes, i goose it a little bit and it puffs abit more. so i think no worries...i'll ck it out more tomorrow. the following day of course i cant wait to get my grubbies on it, so i go outside and i crank her up, all seems well, i pull the choke start her up and away the motor goes... no smoke at first but after 1 min or so i notice some smoke out of the tailpipes i goose it and it gets worse. so i decided to let it warm up a little bit in hopes that the smoke would go way but it didnt. i would like to get this car running without smoking out the back so i can take the familia out into town for some burgers at the local sonic. and maybe perhaps throw some lowering blocks under it.... this is what i have ckecked so far if i have missed something please help me out. i checked the compression in the cylinders and its all around 95 psi or so and it holds it there. the spark plugs seem like they are covered in oil, im assuming that this oil is coming from the valve seals since the compression test holds...? the gentleman said that the engine had been rebuilt, it appears to be so but i dont know if he drove it much and perhaps the rings maybe are stuck? there isint any chocolate milk in the oilpan, at least none that i can see. before the engine gets up to op temp, the top of the radiator seems to bubble an awful lot of dirty coolant almost like a weak choc milk in color. i could try to replace it and fluch the block, see if that works. could this be maybe exhaust gasses flowing into the coolant? could it be maybe that theres a head gasket bad on this engine judging by the symptoms? the oil seems to be on both sides of the plugs cylinders 1-4,5-8. could i just take the heads off and inspect and if it is indeed the valve seals just replace them? with the engine still in the car? what would you all do? Heres what the gent said about this car, the engine has been rebuilt with adjustable lifters, around 2009. the tranny is rebuilt and shifts good, stops good. brakes rebuilt, new wiring and seats. still 6v. i appreciate the help. Rafa-
Flathead Fords did not use valve seals,however there is a rubber like ring that goes on the out side surface of the guide. You have to pull the valve/guide assy. to see if they are there/good. Pull the upper hoses from the thermostat housings and see if there are 'stats in there. You need to flush out the rusty water. If you think there may be a chance of exhaust gas leakage into the cooling system most radiator shops have a "Block check" kit that will confirm if so.
Nice car! Are you sure it's oil on the plugs and not coolant? The flathead has no valve seals. Valves ride through guides only and are only subject to vertical forces therefore they don't wear out quickly. The valves are "upside down" and motor oil has to defy gravity to enter the combustion chambers. Also, the cylinder heads have no oil passages, so a blown head gasket will not oil-soak your pistons, although leaking coolant can blow past the rings into the crankcase oil. If its oil, I'd blame the rings, despite your relatively good compression readings. If it's coolant, then I'd suspect a bad head gasket, or more likely a cracked block.
Thanks for the reply! It's definitely oil, it's black and oily, it's oil. Since the engine has been rebuilt do you think it's the rings that are stuck per se? Maybe if I drive the stuffing out of it they'll free up? I'll have to take pics of the plugs and post them up. Thanks more to come...
Johns right. They only have a oil "O" ring seal on the intake valve, not the exhaust. But you have to pull the head and remove the valve assemble spring and all to see if they were ever put on. The one concern you mentioned is the bubbling in the radiator. The block check is a good idea. It is a chemical dye that goes into the cooolant and changes color when there are exhaust gasses present. Good way to go first before pulling the heads.
Ok, so i lremoved the hoses and the water necks and there arent any thermostats, i flushed out the old coolant and replaced it, seems to run a bit cooler now, but still puffing out of the back. i checked my timming annd its spot on but it still lags abit when you try to get on down the road. i played with timing and its still just doesnt seem like the flatty likes any setting i give it. the carb is a ford/holley 94. im not sure but i dont believe that carb and that dizzy are helping it out any either. i can live with a little oil burning but the power lagging issue is awhole other animal. i will take pics of the plugs next.
Check the vacuum canister on the distributor to make sure it is good. If it isn't, the engine will not see proper spark advance and will not run well.
Ok now install a pair of stats 160 or 180 [perfered]. If you still are seeing bubbles in the radiator at operating temp with stats installed get it checked for combustion gas leakage into the cooling system .Radiator shop and some garages will have the needed "Block Check" kit/tool. If you have a combustion leak into the cooling system you need to stop everything else and find out why,bad gasket cracks etc.
i ck'd the diaphram, i dont have anything to measure exactly how much vacuum im pulling but i placed a small hose on it and drew in some air with my mouth and the diaphram is actuating... i saw someone suggested a member on here GMC BUBBA for dizzy's i sent him an email at his business maybe he can recommend a good dizzy for this flattie. maybe while im at it i can change out the rings on the pistons and call it a day too.
thanks for the help guys, John Evans- i did think about installing thermostats but if its free flowing and warming up to 190 and staying there within a few mins, whats the real benefit of thermostats??? i read somewhere o here that said if you didnt ahave anything to test for gasses in the manifold to remove the water pump fan belts and run it that way. i did and i didnt see any bubbling when goosing it. of course i didnt run it in the ground i just did it to ck the radiator. but no bubbling.
You stated in your post that the engine was over hauled in 2009 and didn't say what miles had been put on it. The rings may not be seated as yet and if all the plugs have about the same oil on them I suggest you run it on the hi way for a few hundred miles and keep track of oil usage if any. If your carburetor is running rich this can cause oil consumption and poor performance . A lot of people over haul their motors and let them sit and unless proper lubrication is used during the build the cylinders can rust from setting and actually stick the rings. There is a lot of information that could help determine the problem but much is not listed here.
Thanks Ray! i was hoping that was the case, the only issue is that i can only get about 40-50 MPH down the road, it feels "sluggish" i ck'd timing with the light etc and no dice. im working on getting another dizzy from GMC BUBBA on this website and trying that. the carb seems rebuilt and running fine but who knows. the fuel spray when you actuate the throttle seems fine maybe i can replace the fuel pump while im at it. i heard the fuel starvation is also misdiagnosed as spark issues. Thanks for the response. Rafa
I have nothing against Bubba and GM distributors (except for the look of a huge GM HEI unit under the hood of a flattie) but why leap on a new distributor? Check (or replace) the points and definitely replace the condensor, rotor and cap first. The original load-a-matic distributor is not great, but it is good enough for a stock engine. You say "no dice" with timing light. What do you mean? You say "sluggish" but is it starving or bobbling or breaking up or backfiring? If it runs fairly smooth but lacks performance, I'd focus on the fuel system first. You should at least dissassemble and clean up the carburetor especially if the car sat for a long time. Fuel spray means nothing if the main jets are clogged or if your bowl isn't refilling fast enough. The added benefit of thermostats (after warmup) is the restriction they provide. Although you want coolant to flow, you don't want it to flow too fast otherwise the radiator won't have enough time to cool it. You can put large washers or hollowed out thermostats if you like, but don't run it unrestricted.
First off the lady is a keeper. Give her my best. You say its bubbling in the radiator. My first guess is that it is a blow head gasket. But although I may be mistaken I don't think that flatties have oil in the head. I guess there could be an oil galley up there but I can't imagine why. It survives a leak down test so I'm going to guess that it isn't something that is going to require a major overhaul. you can give it a redimentary check with it in the car and if it needs to come out for repairs pull it afterwords. I'd probably start by puling the heads and the intake. The go from there. OK I just can't resist this, check your PCV valve. I was going to say muffler bearings but PCV just sounds so much more official.
It has a 94 Holley, but is it the right one? Many times a builder will put a 94 off an older flathead that didn't have the load-a-matic distributor on an 8BA. The advance won't work right at all with this combination. Your flathead needs a carb with venturi vacuum to the advance port, not manifold vacuum. With any other carb, the advance actually tries to work backwards, advancing at idle and retarding as the revs come up. That could be the cause of sluggish power. As to the oily plugs, a flattie doesn't get much oil to the valley chamber to cause the guides to leak. I've never used the rubber rings on the guides, and never seen one suck up oil there. I'd guess the rings aren't seated,or have rusted and stuck. A long drive might loosen them up. If you are really brave, you could cover the rad and get the engine as hot as possible without losing coolant, that will help a lot if the rings are stuck. If that fails, well, you will have to pull her down and rering it. A Magnaflux job or a pressure test is always a good idea on a flathead Ford.
Seems like the short list would be these two items: 1. Block test for the bubbling in coolant - also cheap diagnoses for head gasket and cracked block, since you didn't build the motor - NAPA #700-1006. 2. Vacuum check of the distributor advance diaphragm, and maybe a quick map of the timing readings at idle thru 3K rpms... not under load, but might tell us something. Just a thought before you start pulling stuff apart.
Hey R Pope, check the photos. The carb appears correct and you can see the vacuum lines to the rear of the carb. Hey Rafael: I saw the video. The distributor is the least of your problems. Your loving wife bought this for you from someone who claims to have rebuilt it last year--- why did they sell it and what was done on the rebuild? My rebuild brought me up to at least 110 PSI compresssion. Pull a head. Check cylinders for a ridge at the top and see if there are honing marks. Check piston tops for oversize stampings. Get the cylinders measured for size and taper. While you're at it, check the valve seats for corrosion and cracks which is very common especially on the middle cylinders with the siamesed exhaust ports.
Ok fellas, well i was typing out answers and the hamb crashed. so if i forget someone again sorry. Mike51Merc- The old coot that sold my wife the custom did indeed say he rebuilt it but it was because he claims he wanted another toy to play with his grandson. i still believe that the rings havent settled. i'll have to call him and ask what exactly was done to the engine otherthan adjustable lifters. as far as the timing light, i timed it in accordance to OEM std. ligning up the pinter to the mark on the harmonic bal. then i fiddled with it a nbit more by ear and it didnt like to run very well in any spot i placed it. i guess that could be a gas issue?? i just dont know what to look for? the bowl seems full on the gas pump, i guess i could just rebuild the carb again? or just take it apart and clean it again??? BLAKE: i went by napa to get some thermostats before i saw your post and they didnt even know anything about the leak detector kit. and i dont really know how to do #2 in your post.... sorry RPope: I think im with you mang, i think the rings need a good driving to get them freed up and loosened. but i cant really get the engine reved up more than 30-40 MPH or so. Heres what i did so far, i completely flushed the radiator/Block and installed new gaskets on the thermostat housings, and they leaked damn cast iron... i'll have to run by and get RTV tomorrow. the temp sending unit is a wonky one, ill have to go by lowes to get a brass nipple so i can just screw it in and be done with it. (the original one was cracked) so i installed thermostats and damnit if the damn thing doesnt run cooler!!!!Mike51Merc you were right, you da man!!! it runs at 155-160 ish all day! and i'll be damned if the smoke doesnt seem like it either went away or is going away!!! i think the rings were a bit stuck....i can live with a tiny bit of smoke. so i guess i can take apart the carb and paybe fuel pump??? or should i just get another one??? im sure my wife doesn't vote for it but i vote for a dizzy and a pump and carb. we're halfway there fellas thanks for the help so far! Rafa-
You WILL NOT find the correct fitting for the temp gauge bulb at LOWE'S etc. It is a special fitting with a seat in it for the nut to clamp the bulb flange to. Take the old old to a autoparts store that sells gauges ,they will have the correct one.
its not the original one, after market temp gauges have a 3/8 pipe threading on it. if you can find a 3/8 female compression fitting married to a 3/8 pipe fitting it should work. but thanks i'll look at the aftermarket stores. for a replacement. Rafa edit* better yet i just found it... thanks!!! napa part # BK 7011798
I was in the autoparts biz 35 years and have never seen a mechanical temp gauge that the nut was 3/8s pipe . All US and most import ones that nut that clamps the bulb into the adaper is 5/8s X11 thread. The adapter fitting come in 1/4-3/8-1/2 taper pipe thread. Probably got 8 or 10 in my parts stash. Just read your edit ! Cool go for it. You would not believe the confusion I have seen over the years on fitting types and sizes. Also some of the wild combinations people would toss on the counter and say make this go together !! LOL
So after I get these few leaks taken care of I will be attacking the fuel System. How do I exactly ck the float measure from the flat surface down 1 11/32" I forget exactly the measurement I have it written down somewhere. But from the top to where? The lowest part of the float ? The carb tends to sweat a bit of gas so I think the pump might be giving it too much fuel press, I'll see if I can't get a gauge on it. Rafa
ok so i figured out the float thing. it was alittle off but not too much so i "reset" it to the specs that everyone on here claims. next i was going to clean everything but the damned thing was ultra clean!!!! i mean i wouldn't mind eating soup out of that bowl!!! i was at the stroe so i went ahead and bout 8 NGK plugs and gapped them to .030'' . the jets were 51 on both sides, the Power valve (PV) was 7.5 im assuming, it said 7 and 5 and 5 on another side. so im assuming 7.5. so after all this i put everything back together and after coaxing the fuel into the bowl VROOOM! i let it warm up and reset the timing and took it for a test drive. and brother let me tell you!!! this thing drives nice!! still a couple misses but i was able to travel at hwy speeds easily! so i call that 99% ready to go, i appreciate the help from everyone! it still burns a little bit of oil but i can live with that for now. i'll have to hit that one up after the next deployment maybe. now time for seatbelt install and take the kids to get some sonic burgers at the drive in....!!!! im so stoked! the red circles in the carb pic had zip tie pieces, at first i thought it was trash, but then i realized that the sneaky person that rebuilt this placed the zip tie pice on there to help the stripped screw hole grip the screw...snbeaky sneaky!
Cool Man !! First rule only change ONE thing at a time. Makes it much easier to see what happens with the change. Re-check the point gap after running it a bit. You did put a tiny spot of grease on the points rubbing block right?
Cool car...........Flatheads need to run to get the bugs out.....I would drive it a few miles before I'd tear the motor down.....I put two temp.gauges on by flatheads... to find out how each head is running hot.....enjoy the ride....Big Bad John
JohnEvans: um yeah sure i did j/k i completely forgot about that step!!! lol i'll get right on it. big bad john: i do have two temp gauges, i dont trust one!!! lol Rafa-
ok so its been a few since this last issue. im running a bubbas hotrod dizzy now and the the timingis spot on. i decided to run down to the bus stop to pick up the kids in old pedro, and damnit if the temp on the gauge didnt run up to 200-205...! i mean its putting around at 15mph here in military housing, but 200! really! i was curious if running it down the road with some airflow over the radiator wouldnt help. it did it ran down to 175-185 but at slower speeds it was 195-205ish. that seem sa bit warm no? whats the correct op temp for the flatties? im reconsidering taking the thermostats out and gutting them to get the "washer" type of effect. doesnt 200-205 sound a bit warm to you guys? *edit- i had previously flushed the radiator, with water with the engine off, could it be that theres more junk in the block plugging up the pathway for the coolant to get to the block? on both sides? the radiator had flushed clean along with the block.??? Thanks for the help.. Raf-
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