Problem starting my 324 olds rocket after it warms up. Need help!

Ok I have a 1956 olds rocket 324 in my model A. I just got this car going and drove it two times and about 6 miles total. So it starts up fine and have it running 20 min or so and then you turn it off and try to start it and it will not turn over. It sounds like the battery is dead. The battery is brand new. I think it is the starter getting to hot. If i let set a few hours it will start back up. Maybe I need to get a mini starter or heat shield. What else could it be? Any info would be great.


Thank, Mike

 

OK so do you the worst case scenario for what else it might be?

Bad main bearings will also have those symptoms. Did you pull the rocket down for inspection before it went in the ch***is?

Hopefully its a hot starter. I got a starter blanket here that I'm not using if you want to try it before you start throwing money at it.

 

check the little stuff first. your timing could be too far advanced. i had this problem with a 72 firebird with a high compression 350. when it does it again, retard your timing by a few degrees and see if that helps. mark your distributor first though.

 

Just wondering... how or why do bad main bearings cause a problem like a bad starter?

 

I had a car way back that would have the same issue and just making an aluminum (.062 thick) shield that stood about 1/2" off the starter diameter and ran from the front to the rear of the starter housing cured my hot start problem.

 

They get hot from friction. Things swell when they get hot and then unswell (is that a word?) when they cool down.

Actually the starter could have a cracked field also. I bought hi-torque starter from one of the local roundy round guys back in the '90s that acted like that. I knew my mains were good because I ahd just built the mill. So before I pulled the motor I checked my battery, it was good as well as the cables. I was already running a remote soleniod and I had shimmed the starter when I installed it. So I pulled the starter apart and found a cracked field. Replaced it and never had the problem again.

 

The timing is about dead on. So I do not think it is that. I hope it is not the main bearings. We do not think it is the bearings.

 

I'll dig that starte blanket out for ya. Grab your brother and come by and get it. He knows how to get here. Don't throw money at it that you don't need to throw at it.

I damned sure hope its not inserts myself.

The old sedan is looking good by the way. The Rocket is a good decision it makes it.

 

whats dead on ?what the book says or what you think it should be?sounds like the timing is advanced too far .forget the marks and run it where it is happy.

 

Is the ground wire from battery grounded to the frame or is it ran straight to the starter? I have found it best to run straight to starter bolt..

 

I will call my bother Pork thanks.Dead on with a timing light. It is grounded to a frame bolt.

 

Remove connecting bolts & nuts from battery cables, the positive should be fastened by a lock washer and nut on the solenoid. CLEAN!
Ground cable should also have lock washer where it connects to engine block. (bellhousing bolt would be good, NOT an exhaust manifold 'hot bolt') Connect engine to frame with a NAPA braided ground cable.
Clean both battery clamps shiny, if you already did, do it again.

Get a portable amp meter and hang it on the positive cable. Read it while cranking the hot engine. Repeat test on ground cable. If amperage draw is excessive, it MAY be the starter. If the amperage is not excessive, (less than 200 amps) the cylinders are probably tapered, Oldses were notorious for this. (I must have condemned 150 Oldsmobiles for cylinder taper in my years at St. Claire Motor Co. in San Jose...Cadillac-Oldsmobile.) There was a saying: "There's nothing as tired as a tired Olds"...
When fresh they spin over like a top.

 

Ditto

I fought the same problem for a year. I relocated the ground cable from the frame to a bolt on the tail shaft housing and it never happened again. The unknown ground path created too much resistance after it got warm. Moving the ground eliminated the added resistance and all was well.

I did all the "heat soak" tricks but nothing helped because it was not a heat soak problem. Just my experience.

 

Heavier Battery wires , I had this problem with my AD trucks , changed to a biger wire and it solved it

 

The pipes are not close to the starter, so I don't think a shield will help. Might make it worse if it's a bad starter...

If you did all the above mentioned things posted, and it still acts like a heak soak starter problem, I'd pull the starter to look to see if the armature is dragging on the fields. Starter comes apart esy and if it's hitting, you will see it's marks. It may be too close when cold, and normal engine heat is swelling it just enough to drag.

The solenoid is engaging, right? and just cranking super slow?

 

The bat cable is 2 gauge.
Yes the selenoind is working. It just cranks super slow.

 

Tommy, I found this out in the early 60's ,the hard way ,348 impala with 3 two's..

 

This is the best first step advice. Your ground is not good at all.

 

When in doubt, get the starter done over by a good shop where they rebuild YOUR core. It may be double the price of what the chain stores carry, but it'll outlast them too.

Bob

 

I just took the starter apart and it looks like it is draging on a couple of the fields. You can see grind marks on the armature and shiny spots on the fields. If it is draging would this be the cause? Can it be fixed? rebuilt?

 

I was aware of the too small a cable gauge for the long distance runs when I built my frame in the 70s. I welded a dedicated stud to the frame to make sure there was a good ground connection. I thought that I had planned ahead enough and It always started when cool. The connection was tight and clean. I replaced the starter, built heat shields... nothing. Moved the ground cable from the frame to the trans tail shaft housing and it was fixed. I fought it for so long that I will never forget it. My first 34 Ford P/U.



I still have the new solenoid in my tool box that I bought for it. It's still new 30 years later.

 

How about getting a little scientific with this problem?

Can you get a 1/2" drive socket and a torque wrench on the end of the crank? If so, with the engine cold, slowly try to turn the engine with the torque wrench while noting the torque required to reach the "breakaway" point when the crank actually starts turning. This might be easier to do with an old bending-beam style torque wrench.

Then remove the torque wrench and fire it up and let it run till it gets to operating temperature. Shut it off and let it heat soak for a few minutes. Then put the torque wrench back on it and check the breakaway torque spec again. If it's noticeably higher then something's tightening up in the engine.

If it's the same or less torque required, then I'd lean more toward a timing, starter, battery, grounding issue.

 

I am NOT a starter rebuilder by trade .... that said, the ones I've seen I just guess they were cranked to death on old cars that needed tune-ups , and that could be why things got heat warped.

Lot's of Delco starters sure look like they use the same length body, so maybe swap the Olds nose housing onto a used donor.

The best thing is find an old time electrical rebuild shop. The may even stock new fields or even armatures....and be able to do it right if you can't find donor pieces.

I don't know if just because a housing is the same length as your Olds, if there could be difference in how strong it is...sorta like a generator...maybe the Olds and Caddy used stronger starter guts than a chev???

 

if you changed to a hot cam, the old timing marks may no longer be valid. again; this happened to me in a hotrod firebird with a hot cam. when it was hot, sometimes i'd have to retard the distributor just to get it started.

 

A dragging armature is not good. That will slow things down. Sounds like you need new bearings in the starter. You don't say if you are using a 6v starter. If you are using 6v you need cables about the diameter of your thumb. Not modern 12v cables. And, as mentioned, get that ground connection onto the motor near the starter.

 

with problems like this it is always easier to eliminate the known causes. this sounds to me like too much timing,and the simplest way to tell this is to eliminate the spark.Just take away the coil wire and reach in and turn it over ,if it does the same then move to the next logical and easy cause and that would be the ground.Im sure you have or have access to a pair of pumper cables,just hook the black lead to the neg.on bat and to a known clean ground on the motor.If that doesnt work I would then adress the starter.Im still banking on too much timming.Dan

 

Hello KC, just this week I had the very same problem with a 371 Olds motor in my 40 Ford. the space is tight and things get warm in a hurry
in there. The battery is new the cables are good and the starter was just rebuilt. I too thought the starter was getting hot, actually everything in there gets hot. After some checking I found the distributor hold down was loose and the timing was crazy advanced. After backing the timing
down the motor started right up even when hot. The motor even runs 20% cooler now! Check that timing!

 

How does a cam swap change where TDC is? The engine's timing requirements may change, but a cam has nothing to do with where the piston is.

 

i had this exact problem on my 303 this year. start it cold no problem, drive it around no problem. after turning it off it wouldnt start for an hour or two. if your starter isnt the issue i'll scare you a bit here. take a good look at your compression. it was hinted to me here and i tried....i ended up with 6 at 40 and 2 at 60...1/3rd and 1/2 of what it should be (120). tore my "old rebuilt" motor appart. a few scored bearings and some extremely worn walls, pistons and rings as good as trash. i hope this isnt your problem but check your compression.

 

I think F&J is right on. The bushings in each end of the starter are
likely worn which allows the armature to ride down close to the
field coils. When it's cold there is just enough clearance for it to
work. When it warms up, the armature swells just slightly and
begins rubbing on the field coils.
A couple of $2 bushings will most likely fix your problem if you
can find one of us geezers to remove the old ones(small chisel)
and press new ones in.
Also, move the ground cable to the block or trans. You're done!