Bought a f'ed-up 261 six...experienced engine-builders, help me think about this.

Excellent Update Since posting this thread, and listening to you guy's advice, I had decided to just rebuild the engine. I stopped by "Troy's" shop a couple of weeks ago, and discussed this situation with him. All I wanted to know, is if he was willing to refund some of my $. He said he had other buyers for the engine, and suggested that he buy it back from me, but since I had dis***embled the engine, it was now "a different deal", and he'd have to come over to see the engine. Sounded like he wouldn't take my word on the condition of the engine, even though I took his, and he was probably gonna try to buy the engine back for less than I paid for it...then likely sell it to someone else for even more profit. He knew I wasn't happy, and as I left, he gave me the ol "wave off"...as if to say, "Ah, ta heck with ya". So I didn't have a good feeling, and figured that was that for him and me.

He's called me 3-4 times since then. He hadn't left a message to inform me of his intentions, and I figured he'd might try to take advantage of me a second time, so I didn't return the call. But...I was fully aware that I wasn't sure of what he might have to say, so today I called him back.

He really surprised me...he said, "We've been friends for a hundred years", and he figured an old motor wasn't worth ruining that, and wants to give me $250 of the $500 purchase-price back. Well...I'll be damned. I told him that was way better than I expected him to say, and thanked him profusely. I don't know if he had second thoughts or what, but I'm happy...not just because of the $, but I also hated to think that our relationship was at an end. Yaaaaay.


Bought a '54 Chevy 261 six from a guy a couple of towns away from me to put into my '53 Chevy pickup. He's an old hot rodder/restorer/engine builder/parts dealer that's been doing this stuff since the early '50s...builds a lot of flatheads. I'll call him "Troy"...don't really wanna slander his name here...maybe to his face, but not here. I've known him for a few years, and have bought a few parts from him in the past. He's never really screwed me before, but I've only bought parts from him that I've only had to look at and determine their condition...'til now. This is the first engine I've bought from him. I just did a compression-check, and the engine (out of a 6000 series '54 gas-truck) is NOT in as good condition as he led me to believe.

Me: "Does it burn oil?"
Him" 'No."
Me: "Any internal or valvetrain noise?"
Him: "No...this is a goooood engine. All it needs is a coat of paint and run it."
Me: "How much?"
Him: "$500"
Me: "Will ya take $400?"
Him: "No...Why should I? I'm givin' ya a stealin' price as it is.
Me: "Well Troy...should I do a compression-test before I buy it from you, or should I take your word for it?"
Him: "I know it's a good motor...I ran it in the truck before I took it out. It does me no good to lie to ya, 'cause you'll just be back."

So I paid him, loaded it, and took it home. It had a broken bellhousing where the starter mounts. As I was removing clutch, flywheel and bellhousing to replace with my bellhousing, I noticed that it seemed to turn over a little easier than a good motor should. I started to worry. I installed my bellhousing, the flywheel that came with it, a starter I rebuilt for it from my pile of parts, and did the compression-test. Here are the results...

cyl 1 - 90lbs dry - 100lbs w/oil

cyl 2 - 100lbs dry - 125lbs w/oil

cyl 3 - 50lbs dry - 60lbs w/oil

cyl 4 - 100lbs dry - 110lbs w/oil

cyl 5 - 60lbs dry - 70lbs w/oil

cyl 6 - 110lbs dry - 125 w/oil

As you can see, each cylinder's compression increased only about 10lbs with oil...well, except cylinder #2...a whole 25lbs difference there. That tells me that even though the cylinders/pistons/rings are obviously worn, the main problem may be that the valves aren't sealing as well as they should.

Now...what to do in regards to dealing with the engine, and also dealing with "Troy"? And that's where I'd like you guys to give me some input. I know what would have to be done to determine the real condition, and then "bring it back". Dis***emble, inspect and mic the internals, and either do a hone/rings/valves/bearings/gaskets-type job if I can get away with it, (I'm hoping) or a complete rebuild with new pistons/full machining/etc. if needed. I've done the "freshened-up" thing before...the first type of rebuild mentioned...basically everything minus the machining and new pistons. In fact, it was on a 235, and it worked out very well. I expect some of you to say, "Well, if you know what to do, just do it." And I will...but since time and $ is a real issue for me in this case, I'm hoping that before I begin, some of you guys with more experience than me, knowing the results of the compression-test, might make some guesses as to what I might be dealing with here...mainly with the upper end. I would of course check the cam, timing-gears, oil-pump, journals and bearings, and all the rest.

I also welcome any input in regards to dealing with "Troy". I feel that he thought I either wouldn't care or I wouldn't know the difference, and that pisses me off. And considering these compression-readings, the damn thing would've had to have smoked at least some when he ran it, and that also pisses me off. I believe he ********ted me, but I also know it's difficult to determine the true condition of an engine by just running it for a minute. A "borderline" engine can be perceived as a good runner. Still, I think he "stretched the truth" in order to make a sale. At first, I was ready to take it back, get my money, push it off the back of my pickup, and tell him to "f.o." and that I'll never do business with him again. But...these sixes are getting harder to find, especially the 261s, and I'm not so sure I wanna give it up so quick. Also, he's been a good source of parts for me, and I'm not so sure I wanna end the relationship or ream him too bad. I'm thinking of telling him that this engine needs to be serviced, and he oughta refund some of my money to justify the work I'd have to do to it.

Tell me what you think. Thanks guys. - Rick

 

P.S. - Here's a picture of my truck.

 

what i would do is just explain the situation to him by saying it is not as good of an engine as he thought it was, deferring blame for the time being. If he is worth keeping as a friend/parts guy he will make the situation right. if Troy ends up being a **** about it, then throw the blame at him

 

well as for the engine..............

did ''Troy'' tell you he did a compression test???

and most 6's run forver .....and sound good.....

but it does come down to buyer beware......
maybe you should have done a compression test.....

and have you been back there or at least given the guy a chance to explain his side??

but there are lots of factors

and it is a used engine and you only paid 500

a good rebuilt engine would be way more
sounds to me you wanted more than you paid for

 

Hmmm. I'm building an AD truck in my head right now, and a 261 would be nice.

I consider any "used" engine to be a core and ***ume it needs a rebuild, even if it's still running, and wouldn't take anyone's word that it could be run as is.

A 56 year old engine that CAN be rebuilt and isn't cracked or too worn out is a "goooood" engine IMO.

And half of the cylinders show decent compression.

So is $500 too much for a 261 needing a rebuild?

Like you said, 261s are not all that easy to find.

I think you got neither a good or bad deal.

 

Rick

I can understand you being upset with this guy. I would definitely expect what I pay for. But it's hard to go on a mans word these days, I would ask for some money back and see what he say's. All he can do is say no. That being said I think you got a decent deal. The real question is how much is the engine worth to you as a core? Could you buy a guaranteed spins over and is good 261 for less? As you said they are getting harder to find.

I'd pull the head and have a look. If it never had hardened seats installed and was designed for leaded gas they could need some work. Maybe all it needs is a valve job. It's worth investigating. Don't get too bent out of shape. Just think....It could be worse. I could be Matt I could have a fresh 460 with 1000 miles on it that just lost oil pressure and has a heavy miss.......

take care. I know you'll get it figured. the truck looks awesome. I want one bad.

 

also have you run the motor yet? maybe you should run it and see?

 

Thanks Nummie..."deferring blame for the time being." That's good advice...pretty much how I thought I'd handle it. I needed encouragement to keep my cool, though.

 

This is one of those sticky situations. On one hand if it needs a full rebuild you paid a kinda high price for a core. On the other hand there is a good chance that if you install it it might run fine and after awhile those weak cylinders could come around and make a fine running engine. In the end it's one of those "buyer beware" deals. Any chance you could hook up a radiator to it and run it for a period of time without installing it? You could just block it up on the ground with a radiator hooked up..........sometimes a half hour of running on an engine that has set for a long time makes a world of difference.

Frank

 

harrydude, Steve Ray, Hitchhiker, Fab32...thanks guys for your input.

I only wanted exactly what he said I was getting...regardless of price. Maybe he was right that it didn't smoke. That would be a good sign that the bores/pistons/rings aren't too bad, and that it just needs a valve-job. I can do that with my eyes closed, and it won't cost too much. While I'm at it, it wouldn't take too much more to pull the pistons, hone the cylinders, and install new rings...and put in new bearings if needed. (I'll have to keep my eyes open to do that though.) And what-the-hell...cam, gears, water-pump, etc...jeez. LOL. We'll see...

Matt...Are you saying you bought a 460 for $1000, and it's f'ed-up? That ****s a big donkey-****. Too bad we're not closer...I've got a rebuilt '75 Lincoln 460 that I've had on the stand for years. It's only got 200 easy limo miles on it...no b.s. I'd sell it to you for $1,000. Runs absolutely perfectly...I tested it. Two friends of mine had a limo service years ago...had one of those older, shorter limos. The engine went bad, and they got a replacement from a large engine remanufacturer here in Michigan...can't remember the name right now. Anyway...they only ran it for a couple of weeks, and then bought one of the big, long, newer limos, and this one got set aside. Good luck with your engine.

Frank...You get it. Kind of a high price for a core, especially considering what he told me. But a good idea to run this thing on the floor for a while. I had decided to do that tomorrow. I've got a good radiator for the truck. That'll tell me for sure if it's gonna smoke. Even still, I'll at least do a valve-job considering the extremely low compression on those two cylinders. I actually think that all the cylinders would tend to wear evenly, and any great variance is likely due to valves. The wet compression test indicated as much.

Thanks again, guys. This is what I needed...just a few of you to tell me I'm on the right track. Nice to have friends to talk with about it. I won't go biting his head off until after I find out for sure.

 

id fire it and run it.

Or re- lap the valves and see if that does anything. Could just be a sticky ring.

 

I wish I only had $1000.00 bucks in it, actually I've probably got close to $4000.00 in it....It's a 460 I built for my F250.... it has about 1000 miles on it. It's broken. I'm not too happy.

 

Sorry Matt. It's late, and my brain has low compression on two cylinders. Now I'm with ya...only 1000 miles...$4,000! You're right, things could be worse for me. I don't feel so bad now for some reason. Like the old saying goes...I had no shoes, and felt bad for myself, until I met a man who had no feet, so I asked him if I could have his shoes that he wasn't using. (Heard that somewhere here.)

BTW...I'll bet your problem is valves too...one valve is stuck. Hopefully it hasn't hit a piston. Get out the compression gauge, test it, and pull the offending head.

 

Dynaflash_8...absolutely. Gonna run it. Then pull the heads. Off to bed now. Holy ****..."good morning."

Uhhh...heads? Head...I'm gonna pull the head.

 

Do a leak-down check, should tell you where the problem is. I would think you would want to do a valve job regardless, given the age, IMO.

 

Run it and see what you got after its warmed up.

 

Compression test doesn't tell you much if the engine's been sitting. Run it, then do the compression test again. And see if it smokes, or rattles.

The cracked bellhousing...would it have prevented the engine from starting?

 

He said he had no reason to lie to you because you would just be back.

I would call him and put him in a position where he doesn't have to have egg on his face just because you have histiroy with him. Mayhaps he just gave you the wrong engine by mistake. if you catch my drift.

He'll probably make it right by you. if not then you can get surley with him.

The reason I say this is because I have given folks parts befoee that were not as i represented them. i didn't purposly misrepresent the pieces it was an hinest mistake. I even gave a fella thw wrong piece all together once and didn't notice until he contacted me to say that the piece I gave him needed rebuilt. i went straight to the shelf while he was on the phone and picked up the pert I ment to give him. Told him I'd be over and swapped the parts. he was an hour away from me. I was embar***ed but whe he saw the parts side by side it became obvious that it was just a mistake on my part.

 

He said you'd be back if he lied to you. So go back, since he lied to you. Return it for a refund.

That was easy!

 

Compression tests are suppose to be done on a warmed up engine and also as I pm'd you check the valve lash you told me they were solids .They could be over adjusted ,Im hoping its that simple ,John

 

Just was told motor is a heavy smoker .Does anyone have a good motor for cheap that lives near him in Michigan .

 

Nobody mentioned that a 1954 and first series 1955 261 is the most desireable 261 of all and the easiest to sneak in to an early 216 engined Chevrolet and p*** off as the original engine. You were lucky to get it without it being cracked or otherwise un usable. Advertise it and sell it to one of those old guys like me. I already have one so I don't need it.

 

They put the call out for another engine so it's my guess that the "smoker" is about to or has been returned to the seller.

 

If you are not happy with what you paid for the "core" then take it back. I am sure if he is a honest guy the money will be returned. I have ran into cases where similar promises have been made, but did not happen.

I have always been taught if you are an honest person, you will get honesty in return.

 

Nope I just asked that question .Not Rick Ive been talking back and forth with him about the motor ,
He's tearing into it right now .I figured I would try to help him out.Looking for another motor ..........I figured to try to help him out ,It was either put the truck together or buy an inspected car. I talked him into it ....The truck would of been the logical choice instead of buying someone elses problem . He has some really clean cars for sale,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Theres a plug for my Bud.

 

OK fellas...an update on this deal.

Ran it off and on throughout Thursday. It actually ran quite well, with no internal noises except for a slight valve-tick or two, but smoked heavily with no improvement. No need to do another compression-test. I've decided to dis***emble it, and do whatever is necessary. I've got the head off, and pulled the valves before it got late and I came in for the night. It doesn't have the "umbrella"-style valve-seals...only a little tapered plastic ring seal...somewhat deteriorated...may have been ****ing some oil. I did notice that it smoked much worse on deceleration...I can't remember for sure if that indicates oil being ****ed through the valve-guides...anyone? The valves and seats actually look pretty good, and have just a minimum of play in the guides. I suspect possible broken or stuck rings in the two cylinders with low compression, 'cause it doesn't look like the valves are to blame...carbon build-up around the valves and in the bowls, but not on the seats themselves. The cylinders have a ridge, but suprisingly minimal.

Finishing dis***embly tomorrow, and I'll know more. Getting into this engine is exactly what I didn't want to have to do, 'cause I really don't have the time or $...but it's best. I found that the coolant-galley openings were almost completey clogged with iron build-up...wouldn't have cooled as well as it should. Also lots of gunk in the oil-pan...wouldn't even drain out the drain-hole easily...could've burnt this motor up if I had just run it. So...I'll fix it, and I'll know I have a good engine when I'm done. Still gonna have to have a "man-to-man" talk with "Troy" soon, and see if he'll give some of the money back that I spent for this engine that "only needs a coat of paint", and "doesn't burn oil"...LOL.

Thanks John for tryin' to help...but I'm not gonna buy another one. Best to just go through this one, and I'll end up with a good 261 for my truck, and I'll be happy. Just gonna take some work, time, and cash. Guess I better get busy selling some parts!

33-Chevy...very interested in what you stated. Can you tell me exactly what's different about the '54 and early '55 261 engine in comparison to the later years? Does the 216 valve-cover fit? Not that I can't easily check for myself...I have one. Other 216 parts fit as well?

rat seeker...the idea that if you're honest, you'll get honesty in return is a nice thought, but unfortunately not true...plenty of azzholes out there that'll lie right through their teeth to make a buck...even "car" guys.

I know life is hard, but that's no justification to misrepresent and take advantage...it's wrong, and I don't like it one bit. People that do it, figure that "Hey...everybody does it", but they're wrong again...not everybody.

suirrel...yes it would've been very difficult to do a compression-test with the engine at "Troy's" place. The bellhousing was not just cracked...the starter mounting-area on the bellhousing was broken...no way to mount a starter. Not saying it would've been impossible to do a compression-test, but he lives about an hour away from me. I would've had to come back and get my bellhousing and tools, rebuild a starter for it, etc. He was pretty adamant that this was a good engine.

I appreciate the input that all of you took the time to give me...thankyou. At the very least, it kept me from feeling alone with this issue. I think that's one of the best things about hangin' out with you guys. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...I used to feel pretty much alone in this hobby, but not since joining the HAMB! LOL. Thanks Ryan...for bringing us all together.

BTW...John's right. I need to get a dependable driver on the road, and it was a choice between buying an ****** or something similar, (came close) or putting this truck together. John and my wife, Sandy, encouraged me to follow my heart. (Thanks John...you really messed me up!) Sandy is still telling me that even if it takes a little time and money, it's the way to go. She's awesome...has always supported me in this stuff, and loves it too. She's looking forward to gettin' pumpkins with this truck, and a tree at Christmas time. I was kinda excited about having a cool ****** though, with "cans" and neon-green wipers...

 

Firstly ,the compression tests point to valve leakage [ oil doesn't "seal the valves" ]
This is an old engine that has probably been run on unleaded fuel for the last 35 years [ pull the head off and cut the seats and face the valves ]

Now while you're at it ,do the rings and bearings [ this is optional ,but recommended ]

Now you have to question yourself. What would you pay for a 261 with new rings, bearings, gaskets, and a valve job? "probably more than you have spent here in total" [ You have piece of mind of knowing you have actually done it ]

The dispute you have with "Troy" is over the value of a core engine verses a good runner.

I don't think he "ripped you off" , he just knew 261's were scarce so he held out on his price.

The engine was old, and probably a runner as well. But like all old vehicles, they require a huge input of personal labour [ or they become totally uneconomic and expensive ]

Try and find the "silver lining" in this situation. Go and chat with "Troy" over a beer or coffee, explain what you got but don't ask for any money at all! [ see if he can throw in a few parts next time for free instead ]

You'll end up with an overhauled engine [ done by yourself ] , some free parts , keep a friend.
And he'll keep a loyal customer. [a win-win for everyone ]

Whatever you do, try and de-fuse the situation [ before it actually happens ] It's only a Hobby or a p***ion

 

The`54 and early`55 had the old style water pump, which places the fan in the right position on the radiator. I wouldn't necessarily consider those the "most desirable". I'd say`58 and up with the full flow oil filtering would be most desirable. But 261's are hard to find. I bought mine (1957) complete from a guy who didn't know what the hell it was. I got it for $80, and it had clean oil, and beautiful insides. But even still, it had been sitting, and I knew going through it was the smart thing to do. And it was a good thing I did.
This motor may have cost you more up front, but you'll be glad you scooped it in the end. I'm just wrapping up my 261 build for my`49 Chevy pick up. Here's the link to my build. Maybe it will inspire you.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=10816

Good luck with your Stovebolt.

M/P

 

Kerrynzl...I'm with you on all points except: I'm aware that oil doesn't "seal the valves". I was saying since the oil didn't raise the numbers much, that it points to valves...just as you said...unless, if maybe the head-gasket was blown. Also, i've already got the head off, and into this thing. "Troy" did ******** me...he said the engine doesn't burn oil...it's smokes like a fiend. This is not the makings of a "friend". True that "buyer beware", but also true: Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me. If he doesn't make good, I'll never give him another chance at me. Even though this is a hobby/p***ion, it's still business. ($$$) Thanks for your input and encouragement. I'm lookin' for that silver lining LOL. One way or the other, it'll be OK...a couple hundred bucks over a fair price plus whatever I have to put into it isn't going to break me, but since I've budgeted this pretty close, it's eating into my gl*** and installation kit money.

MainProp...Thanks for the info. Good to hear that I won't have to buy a short pump, or modify the original one. There is no oil-filter at all on this engine, and no filter mounting-pad on the exhaust-manifold. That's OK...just change oil frequently and maybe add a filtering-system.

 

Thanks again, MP! Just checked out your build-thread for your 261...very nice. Considering that you've done a complete build-up, it's clear that you know what the heck you're talkin' about when it comes to these engines. If I have a question or two along the way, I hope you don't mind if I bug ya for answers. I can see that I'm gonna have to have the head checked for cracks between the valve-seats.