OK, time for me to dip into the well of knowledge that is the HAMB. Car in question belongs to my son. It is a '61 Falcon 4-door with a '63 170 six and a C4 trans. He bought the car already done so I don't have complete info on exactly what was done. Car was purchased in January, a few months ago the thrust bearing behind the starter motor pinion gear disintegrated. We cleaned out the pieces as best we could and replaced the starter. Well, it has just happened again, It is apparent that edge of the case of the bearing behind the pinion is hitting the edge of the flex plate when the starter is engaged. So, it gets ground down until it comes apart and fails. Based on the stack of receipts I have from the previous owner who put the car together the engine is a '63 170. The flex plate is for a 200 six and the C4 trans is possibly from a slightly later Falcon ('65?). The starter motor we sourced was for a '61 170 and matched the first one that died. So does anyone have a clue what could be causing this. Appreciate your help. Kurt O.
Well, An early ('63) six won't bolt up to a C4. The later sixes would be what bolts up to that trans('66 and later small six). I don't know if there is a difference between the early and late six starter snouts, but that is where I would start. I would ask if you are sure that you have a C4 and not a Ford-O-Matic 2 speed. If you don't, I'd say there is some difference in the two starters.
It's a C4. I have a receipt for a valve job on a '63 170 so that's what I based the engine year on. It's all bolted together and runs, or did until today. Thanks, Kurt O.
well im not sure if this is what your talking about but this was my new starter i got from autozone looked like after first start up. It was ment to be for a 62 170 but its size and every thing was more like my 200 starter
I don't have the rub mark on the case but the face of the thrust bearing looks familiar. So, are you in the same boat as me or did you find an answer? Thanks, Kurt O
I ended up just having the old one rebuilt. but i still have a SLUSH-O-Matic . I was just wondering if they gave you the right one. sense I dident and a c4 isent stock it could confuse a look up on computer parts counter
it looks like you might be missing the spacer between the bellhousing and the block, which might explain the contact you're suffering... you can get a starter shim but i don't think it will help 100% because it will get hit by the ring gear as well. it's POSSIBLE that the flexplate is bolted on backwards (you're not supposed to be able to do that, but...) and it's pulling the torque converter too close to the block. first, make sure your block spacer is in place, then dig deeper. one of the problems with Falcons is that it IS so easy to change things around and make it hard as hell for the next owner, who then has to deal with it. i feel for the next owner of my '62 if i ever sell it....
Here are a couple of photos. The face of the thrust bearing has been worn paper thin and there are two deep grooves in the edge. You can see the shiny marks on the edge of the flex plate so that's where it looks like it's hitting.
Since I know that the trans bolt patterns changed in '66, if you have a C4 we have to deduce that is what you are needing for a starter. I just walked out and compared my starter for the '66 170 I have, to the starter for the original '62 170 from my Ranchero, and there are some differences. Having owned my other Falcon for the last thirty years and at one time being accused of having Velcro motor mounts in it, I can tell you that your motor is the later type bell housing pattern to go with your C4. I can see where you could bolt the early type starter on the late, but there would be an extra bolt hole. The snouts of the two starters are slightly different shapes, and it looks like the gears are slightly different as well. The early starter for mine has the groove for the ring gear as in the photo above, the late does not. I think you simply need the later starter. Do check and make sure you have the block plate too, though.
I just went out and checked. There is a thin plate between the block and the bellhousing, about 1/16" thick. Only 3 bolt holes for the starter motor. I just looked up parts online and I get mixed results for 1966. They show a 3131 starter which is what I have but also a 3124 on the same page. Ya, I know the online catalogs are not too reliable, but I'm looking for clues.
I sourced a later starter motor with a 2 bolt mounting flange. It won't work. Bolt hole won't line up. The sheet metal bulge for the actuator arm hits the block. Still looking for ideas.
Sorry, didn't mean to walk away on this one - my computer crashed right after I posted the other night and I have been without internet for the last couple of days. So, now you have the later starter, and it's still not fitting. The only other thing I can think of is that you may have a '65 only "Cruise-O-Matic" trans, which was the precursor to the C4 in '66. Problem is, I can't think of why that would effect the starter. I'm out of daylight around here tonight so I can't see, but my '62 Futura has a kind of hybrid trans that I built about twenty years ago from a Cruise-O-Matic bell housing and a C4 main body. I will take a look at the starter from that in the morning and see if there is any difference in that than the other two.
i had a 78 200 with a 66 c4 trans and used a starter off a 390. i have the startter here,,, if youd like i will take a pic tomorrow of it and measure, just let me know what youd need pix of
Just to clarify the transmission issue. The C4 was introduced in 1964, as a Cruise-O-Matic, which referred to the shift pattern, NOT to the transmission, per se. In 1967, the name was changed to Select-Shift, but the only real internal trans change was to the valve body. '64 and early '65 V8 transmissions do have a different bellhousing, but it bolts on, no problem there. Cosmo
okay i just recently did the c4 conversion in my 62 falcon with a 170. i used a 1965 mustang bellhousing, & starter. the ring gear is part of the torque converter so you screw that up. i had a similar problem with a ford y-block with a c4 conversion, i put studs in to mount the starter, then shimmed out the starter with washers till the problem went away, then made a shim to that thickness. worked great
It looks like the flex plate may have been crushed or pressed too shallow, bringing the torque converter and ring gear too close to the block. I would shim the starter enough to make the bearing clear the ring gear, the other alternative is to remove the trans and do an exploratory to confirm that everything is ***embled correctly. -KK
I had some what the same problem on my roadster motor,302, It ended up being the wrong flex plate for what I had. Up until I changed the flex plate I just shimmed the starter out. From you pictures it looks like the starter thust bearing is most deffenitly coming in contact with the fly wheel. Which means it is going to far into the area. If you can't replace the flex plate just shim it out and go have an Adult beverage
OK, update time. Sourced a new starter and a shim. bolted it all back up and car won't turn over. The starter engages but no joy. Pulled the plugs and the starter to see if it would turn by hand, nada, won't budge. Crawl around and inspect as best I can with a flashlight and find a substantial crack in the bellhousing that looks like it was punched from the inside. Several months ago the starter went out and the thrust washer ***embly behind the pinion had disintegrated. We cleaned it out as best we could and replaced the starter. I figured that it had just went south, didn't occur to me that it had been hitting the flywheel which chewed it to pieces. I suspect a piece from that fiasco was still floating around and finally got wedged between the torque converter and the bellhousing. Looks like the engine's coming out . I'll have to see how bad the bellhousing is, hopefully reusable. Thanks, Kurt O.
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