I.D.ing a 28-29 Model A...

Any stock Model A gurus out there? I have a running driving Model A truck that I bought a few months ago. Basically all stock with a few upgrades. Had no ***le when I bought it, so I'm doing the regular CA. process of getting a new ***le, no big deal. However, I don't know if this thing is a 28 or a 29.
I've talked to all of my 60+ year old buddies that are out here and one will look at it and pick out one part of it and say, "oh yeah, if it has that it's absolutely a 28/29". Then another will come along and denounce that and say, "oh no, because of this it can't be that - it's definitely the other year".
Any stock Model A that is still in stock configuration and running this many years later is obviously going to be somewhat of a hodge-podge of parts that have kept it running all this time.
Date of manufacture stamped on firewall is 11/20/28. I don't know how literal calendar years were then with production.
Engine number makes the engine a 30 - so that doesn't help.
Been all over the MAFCA with no luck.
I know it has a 28 transmission and parking brake. I understand that the fenders are 29. It has a 28-29 town sedan hood. All of which does not help to answer the question.
I was told that the front crossmembers were different from 28-29(?) That the front of 28 engines bolted solid to the back side of the front crossmember and that 29 engines had the tie bar deal and the isolator springs(?)
I just hate to pull the cab off of a running driving truck to look for a possibly legible number stamped in the frame....
Anybody have any ideas on this? I'd really appreciate some input/ideas/contacts of someone who might know....
Thanks!

 

there should be a number with 2 stars under the cowl on top of the frame on the driver side.. ford built the frame numbers consectutive from 1927-1931 each number range was recorded by month and year (example, frames 1-1** were built in nov of 1927,1**-2**x were built in dec 1927 and so on and so on, this is just an example) and can be found on the internet. that will give you the exact month and year it was built and a means of getting an original ***le with the proper info on it. if the numbers still readable and the original frame. youll just have to get a vin verification from a chp and take that to the dmv to file for a new ***le i know it seems like a pain in the ***, but, if you can do it right then why not do it right.

 

you honestly have a 28 29 NOT a 30 31

now years after 1928, things have changed on the truck, but no big deal

engines get changed around so i wouldnt go off that number

if you take the bolts out of the cab u can prop it and the underlying splash apron up and get the correct number off the frame and go off of that.....without totally lifting the cab off

you have a 28 29 pu, NOT a 30 31

hope this helps

 

Thanks for the reply. The number under the cowl is completely under right? As in - I'd have to lift the cab off to see it?
I've already gotten my verification by CHP done - based off of the engine number. They just used the engine number for the new VIN. I just really want to figure out what year it is so I put the right thing on it....

 

The only way to know for sure is to decode the serial number on the frame.

 

yea i under stand about knowing exactly what it is, i looked up the year of my frame to se what it was afound out it was a 30 frame im using on my 28-29 coupe kinda bugs me but im jus being **** ha.,.thats the only way i know about finding out exactly what it is. a late productiondate like 11-20-28 sounds to me like it would be a year model 29. but who knows for sure

 

Thanks for the reply...Yeah, I knew it was a 28-9, just not sure which one. I'm finding out that most people in my position are not this concerned - they just pick one - but I'm not that guy, haha - I have to know!
Well, I'll have to look into picking up the cab. I was just hoping there was some externally identifying mark or stamping...sounds like the only definite thing is to find the number.....

 

ive been going through the same **** on my coupe. but my firewall was torched out along time ago so all the body production date info is gone.ill probably just go with 28 just cause if i can pull another year outa it why not!!! haha.

 

register it as a 32 because any thing with 32 and ford in the ***le is worth quadrupal the price that way right!! haha.

 

My 1929 roadster pickup has what I think is the production date (3 17 29) neatly stamped in the upper part of the firewall. It's on the driver's side, in the engine compartment, just a couple of inches from the outer edge of the cowl. You might look for that.

 

The serial number is just that, a serial number. There is nothing to decode about it. You can get the approximate production month of the frame from it. The date you found on the firewall is the production date, which once matched the frame's production date, but by now, who knows. I have seen a 1931 frame under 1928 sheet metal. Best to pull up the cab and apron, and find out for certain.

 

Well, i just learned the Town Sedan hood fits other body types, always thought it was taller all these years. I vote that the pick up is a 1929.

 

listen to jimsig.

he's the one that has your question answered. and you dont have to get dirty.

may have to sand a bit, but youl see it. its on the upper firewall.

 

This is correct. The '28 engine bolts directly to the crossmember on the raised back side of the crossmember. The '29 has the bar with the springs because too many crossmembers cracked, so i heard.

I'm sort of in the same dilemma, except mine isn't finished. My ch***is is a '27 AR (very first Model A) and is essentially a '28 frame because i am missing the side mounted hand brake, although i have '29 engine, box, diff and i have no idea what the cowl, door, headlight bars ect are.

I just decided mine would be a '28, because the ch***is is most definitely a late '27 / early '28.

 

My .02 from personal experience... Hitchhiker is correct, but even if you lift the cab off, after 80 years of your frame # being under your cab, chances are most of your number will be rusted/rubbed off anyway, but you might get lucky. If the CHiPpies already gave you a VIN verification, take it, run like hell and use the engine # for your VIN. If your firewall stamp says 11/28, I'll bet you can be pretty sure it's a 29. Register the ****er as that and get your ***le. You gotta figure that with something as old as yours, the VIN is pretty arbritary anyway. So, unless you're doing a concours resto and want to have everything perfect, well... If you're building a rod, it won't make any difference. At least you've got a ***le!! Read some of the nightmare threads on here about just trying to get a ***le, it'll curl your hair...
Here's an option: If you want to make it easier for the cops to "see" your VIN, just get a set of stamps at Harbor Freight and buy a "star" stamp on ebay. Stamp your own VIN plate with the number they verified and weld it to where it's visible for 'em to see. As far as I've always read and been told, the frame number was just that, a frame number. It was not intended (in 1929 anyway) to be an actual VIN #. Which would make sense of why the hell they stamped it where you couldn't readily get to it.
Here in CO, the VIN inspector was (barely) able to make out my frame #. We used that as the VIN, and he used the engine # as an "alternate" VIN on the form. As for me, when I start cuttin' up my frame, I'll do a restamp on the VIN so it's readable and weld it up in front of the firewall on the frame where any law enforecement types can see it.
I think you should also consider the fact that if you get pulled over by some hard nosed cop, or some overly cautious rookie, and they can't readily find a visible VIN... And then you explain to them exactly WHERE it is...Especially if it's different from what your new ***le says with the verification from the CHP... Say hello to Mr. Tow Truck and be prepared. Ask me sometime how I know about how this works...
Wow, that was a lot more than .02 worth. Sorry for the ramble.

 

that's a cool looking truck

 

you might be able to track some of its ***embly history

On my Tudor there is a number stamped in the sub rail right where the front seat mounts are..(in front of the drivers seat between the mounts for the seat)

I found out where my body was made (twin falls Minn.) and with the date stamp on the firewall, and the engine numbers and the NON vin# on the frame(its really just a sequence number) I got mine narrowed down to an AR 28 Tudor body, on original frame, that had a 1930 banger, and trans in it.

the numbers on the subrail will tell you model and where built.
the numbers on the frame rail will give you sequence in line when built..it will allso give you approx date when it was on the line (only so many bult each year its traceable to some degree on MAFCA)
also your date code on the tank wall (remember this can be changed too so you could end up with a 29 tank or upper firewall on a 28 cab, **** happens over 80+ years)

as well as with the engine..many of these were changed over the life of some of these vehicles.you could buy them off the shelf back than.

 

Thanks for all of the input guys. I kinda felt this way too - make it a 28. Only thing that is stopping me at this point is I've completely exhausted every resource that I had for finding 28 California commercial plates with a clear number and I have been able to find 29's.
Ultimately, from all of the input here, sounds like the only positive way to go here is to lift the cab off and check out the number. But yeah, I would only use it for verifying year - and leave my already verified engine number on the paperwork as the new VIN because it is accessable if I'm ever har***ed.
Thanks a lot for all of the responses guys.....

 

In CA, a VIN stamped by anyone but the original manufacturer, or an agent of the state is not valid, even if it is the correct one for the car. CHP can and will impound your car and find the real one, if they feel like it.

Stamping your own VIN in your frame rail, as has been told to me by a CA DMV branch manager, is a felony.

CHP has dedicated VIN inspectors who know what they are looking at and where to find it. This ain't Mayberry R.F.D.

 

The finder brackets on 28's where cast and the mid to late 29's where stamp steel like the 32's. and the tail light's where mounted on the body on the 28's and on the finder's on the 29's also the truck has it's own oddities, Ford mixed and matched a lot also. I used to sell a the swap meet's in the 70's - 80's and was told form the 60+guy's back then thair take on old ford's as you are hearing everyone has there own spin. You have a great project truck enjoy it.

 

If anyone tells you its a 30-31 they are idiots.

Its a 28-29 for sure, easy to spot with the square cab and rounded front fenders.

you say the firewall says 28, the hand break is 28. Most likely true.

if you look at all the brackets rivitted to the frame (body mounts, running board brackets etc...) and they are cast then its definatly a 28.

 

Yes it is a '28 or a '29, but here's the rub. You have a VIN inspection that was done from the engine serial number, which is from 1930.

If you succeed in registering it correctly to the year of the engine, you have a disparity between what the ***le will say, and what the truck appears to be.

If you change engines, then you have no factory stamping of a serial number on the vehicle that matches the ***le.

If this ever becomes an issue, off comes the cab and splash apron to find the serial number on the frame, most likely after it has been removed from your possession.

You then get to explain this discrepancy. Heaven help you if that serial number has any outstanding issues ***ociated with it.

This seems like a hell of a risk to avoid the "trouble" of lifting the cab and apron to find the serial number on the frame.

 

If you don't want to lift the cab or bed off, but don't mind crawling around under your truck with a mic and measuring tape, you could use this site to possibly determine the year:

http://www.plucks329s.org/frame.htm

This pdf gives dates with the locations, sizes and shapes of holes and different stamping patterns. It will take a while:

http://www.plucks329s.org/pdf/frame/Evolution of the frame ***embly.pdf

 

JimSig is right, this is the easy way to find out. Only 28-29 were stamped. The only thing I'm not certain of if p/u had the same.

Check out this thread. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317067

This should help.

 

Wow, that is an amazing amount of information, thank you!
Thanks everyone for the input. I think I'm just going to call it a '29 and run with it. Everyone I've asked has said they think from all signs it's a '29 - the only person that thought it was a '28 was the guy I bought it from - and he had just asked someone too...
Gaters: my truck does have that stamping on the firewall - it's 11/20/28. Most people thought that would make it a '29 model year - do you concur?
Thanks again guys for all of the input. I just drove it to get it weighed for it's commercial ***le on Saturday by dmv mandate. 2220 lbs. So a 2220 lb. truck that barely has enough power to get it's self down the road with it's 40 h.p. really needs a commercial ***le! ha!

 

SCH,

I would think so (29) but do some more research on this link. I don't want to lead you wrong. There are a few distictions pointed out on this site that may help you without having to pull the body. Some of them depend on how stock your body parts are.

http://www.mafca.com/whatyear.html

Use this too if someone hasn't posted this already.

My roadster is stamped 12-14-28 so I am in the same boat. My roadster body has the tail light bracket on the left rear of the body making it a 28 by this definition. 29 the tail light bracket was attached to the left rear fender. I know there was crossover from 28 to 29 in some of these features. I believe early 28 had a left hand e-brake too.

Hope this helps.

 

IF you really get into it with a Model A expert the 28-29 STYLE cabs were used on early 1930's. They changed the gas tank filler from the 28-29 threaded cap to the 30-31 bayonett style with a stainless cap. Don't want you loosing money in a bar bet, check the wording of the question be for betting.

 

i have been wondering... what did you end up deciding it was?

 

i'd say schedule with a vin officer from california highway patrol to visit your location and verify the only number that they are concerned with. it isn't that difficult.
and put some pictures up on the FordBarn if you haven't already done so.
you may find your self there sooner or later.