Give thanks for the Banger Meet Nov. 2010

The Wico X magnetos have an impulse that retards the spark timing 9 to 12 degrees. After the engine reaches a certain Rpm usually 250 + the impulse kicks out and the spark reaches the preset degrees which I would call the advance. CDO is right, the Wico is not a good choice for the street but I have used one in the past. It was on my daily driver and on weekends I would take my family on long drives. I never knew just how much the spark was advanced as I didn't have a timing light back then but I would time the mag impulse to where it would just not kick back when starting and drove the hell out of it. I don't know what to tell you about your problem. i would just double check the wiring and the condenser. What coils are you using? Your choice of point type distributor shouldn't make a difference. The point type distributor is working as a switch. Maybe your choice of coil needs a ballast resistor. The ballast resistor's are not expensive. Have you tried one?
I'm running a stock model "B" distributor and I love it. I have used Mallory's both point type and converted with a Pertronix kit.

 

Thanks for the replies guys! I did fail to mention that I did install a high comp head ( 7.5:1 ). I know with the higher compression you need a hotter spark. As for the coils I've been going through, they have been the stock Model A Ford script coils. If I put a resistor in the primary side, is 3-4 volts going to be sufficient to meet my secondary needs? I've been a tech for alot of years and this one just has me baffled..............

 

Have a look at this coil: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...0276819605&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Bulb is resistor..........6-8 volts. I have it on my watch list, but I'm hesitant to part with the 115 Washingtons + the shipping!!

 

here is the best surprise i have gotten lately
after pulling the car out of its slumbering state i noticed it had a b engine with a diamond on it. it was covered with so much junk that i didnt even know it was a b engine... i just assumed it was an A

 

6 Volt model A (or B) coils do not need, or use, a resistor

Herb Kephart

 

Actually, I had one like Mac's ballast resistor part # A12001 $6.88. Probably buy it from local auto parts. What is your distributor a single or dual point? "A"'s didn't have resistors but early V8's did. What are you setting your points at? I feel that I must tell you that all this is is a suggestion. I ran my RPU with a stock points type distributor and a repop 6 volt coil from one of the "A" suppliers. No resistor No problemo. At least 7.5 to 1

 

Buy an internal resister coil or an external resistrr off Amazon. I have one of those that I use as a underhood trouble light $115 is a-hole-stupid sorry.
You wanna carry spare light bulbs around?

I never paid more than $20 for one of those

If you but an epoxy filled coil you can mount it in any direction.....

About mags... Well they work on old stationary motors Sorry Crazzzz but there goes 'Not spinning fast enough'' idea......

Mags were the only way to get a good clean spark if you didn't have a generator. OR You wanted spark no matter what the charging system.

American Bosch and Wacos have brushes and are not high speed

I've run mags on the street but Vertex not tractor units.

Today there is no real substitute for electronic pointless set ups.

Don't try to use solid copper wire on these either.

Read here

http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/main.htm

 

Hi all, I've got some catching up to do (and obviously some reading), as this year I have become the proud owner of a non-running '30 Coupe, and a nearly-running B pickup, along with a spare B-motor with A head. Just a quick question: the spare is sitting (balanced!) on some wood on a wheeled trolly, but I want to get it on a stand to strip it and check it out - is it safe to bolt it up by the trans adaptor/half-bellhousing? That doesn't look much better than the early V8 ones, and I know most don't recommend hanging them off the flange?

 

Well banger brothers- I have been away for a bit and have not had a lot of time to get the car rocking and rolling. Thought I'd throw a few pics up of why I am still not done. Caitlin is her name- she is getting to the age now where she is about to start helping daddy in the garage!

 

the mag question
I have never had much success building a street A or B motor with a mag they will run but are a pain Bluto is right there is no substitute for a electronic pointless system period as i am building a motor with a Rutherford head that uses a sidedrive I am atemptting to adapt a CDI setup including two motorcycle coils into an old mag [hopefully it will look period] and get round it that way if it works well i have a string of guys with veteran cars wanting me to adapt theirs

 

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. I ran a Wico X magneto in the late 50's and early 60's on my daily driver. I don't know what I was missing. In the mornings I would start it up and drive it to work. It always started. After work I would get back in it and start it up. This was not a real exotic engine "B" head, "B" cam, winfield model M carburetor, straight pipe. I drove it hard. If I stopped at wet intersection I could/would start in second gear and clutch off a little rubber. Speed limit was 55 and I had no problem running that fast. I also saw some very fast dragsters running the same mag. CDO is right, the Wico mag does not have what is normally called an advance but has what mag people call a "Lag" angle. Some people have removed the impulse for some reason and you only have your static timing. These are the guys that get the engine cranking and then switch the ignition on. The initial timing lags a certain number of degrees behind the timing of the mag. I have seen old aircraft type with lag angles as high as 40 degrees, it is usually stamped on the tag. I believe you could call this lag angle the same as a retarded condition. You can idle an "A" down slow enough to hear the impulse snapping over. Gets a lot of notice at stop signs or at least it did when air conditioning was a luxury and most people had their windows rolled down. I am relating my own experience with the Wico X.

 

Hey piewagn, READ THIS,
http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/points.htm

 

That's what has me baffled Herb!! Maybe the point gap is too narrow and I'm getting too much primary saturation. I think I set the points @ .018". I need to go over the dist again.

 

Thanks Bill


"Because the duty cycle is fixed, and because of the high primary resistance, the dwell is not long enough to fully charge the coil. If you were setting up the ignition on a generator or lawn mower where the engine ran at a constant speed then you could set the dwell to charge the coil completely without wasting energy. However, the engine in a car does not run at a constant speed so the dwell of points is almost never correct. The coil is either burning up because it was charged too long or crapping out because it wasn’t charged long enough"

This alone has me looking for an electronic conversion for my Mallory.........

Know where to get them??

 

Just a couple of thoughts :
You say this didn't start until you rewired the car with a new harness. Are you using the complete original wiring system ?
You got me thinking about how theoriginal system has the Model A coil "hot" even when the ignition switch is "turned off" .
The original ignition switch is actually in the points/distributor (ground) side of the circuit .
With the A being positive earth , do you have the correct coil terminal ( primary) grounding/switching through the points.

Something I saved from a Model A club newsletter ( Long Island ?) some time ago explains it concisely .

Ignition Coil & Polarity

(THIS MEMO COMES FROM BOB BIDONDE)
Ignition Coil Hookup Connections

​

The Ignition Coil does not change the direction of current flow, hence it does not change polarity. However, there are more coils in the Secondary Winding inside of the Coil, thus there is more resistance to incoming current flow at the Secondary Winding Terminal, so the Coil's high voltage output to the spark plugs will be less if the Battery is inadvertently connected to the Secondary Winding Terminal. By the way, the higher resistance wastes primary current in the form of heat, and the Coil will run hotter if the Battery (current-in) is connected to the Secondary Terminal instead of the Primary Terminal. Heat reduces coil life!​

​

So now that we know the Primary Terminal on the Ignition Coil is where we want to connect the battery wire, two questions arise to get the connection right in the Model A: (1) Which is the Primary Terminal on the coil? (2) Which is the correct wire from the Battery that connects to the Primary Terminal?​

(1) Using an ohmmeter with one lead in the high voltage output socket, measure the DC resistance at each wire terminal. Connect the Battery wire to terminal with the least resistance to get the highest secondary voltage output to the spark plugs;​

(2) Assuming that the Model A has a 6-volt system wired in accordance with the factory diagram, the BLACK wire from the driver's side of the Terminal Box is the correct wire. If your Model A has non-factory wiring, then find the wire coming from the CHARGE side of the Ammeter and trace it down to the Terminal Box stud. Connect this stud to the Primary Terminal of the Coil.​

​

Do not rely on the markings that may be cast into the coil top at the terminals, and here's why. Before 1955, coils were marked (-) or BAT at the Primary Winding Terminal, and (+) at the Secondary Winding Terminal because the ignitions of the time were 6-volt (+) ground. By 1956, ignitions went to 12-volts (-) ground, so the Primary Terminal was marked (+) or BAT. So you can see the coil markings may cause you to make the wrong connections for a pre-1956 Ford.​

​

If you find the above confusing, here is a much simpler solution. Buy from your local Model A parts supplier, a gizmo known as a "Ignition Spark & Coil Tester." It costs in the ballpark of $25, and it has lights to indicate if the wiring is right or wrong. This gizmo will earn its price back in gasoline mileage and performance. ​

​

Most all coils, 6 and 12-volt alike, for breaker point ignitions are (the same) designed for 6 to 8-volt operation. Note the resistance wire in the figure. In a 12-volt ignition system, the ignition switch has 2 run positions. The START position allows 12 volts into the Primary Coil to get a hot shot high-voltage engine start. When you release the key to the RUN position, the resistance wire is cut into the primary circuit to drop the coil voltage to 6 to 8 volts. The heat from a constant 12-volt input will shorten the life of a breaker point ignition coil.​

​

When converting from 6 to 12-volt operation, you can run a reproduction "Ford" script 6-volt Coil with an external resistor so the Coil operates at 6 to 8 volts. You can also run a 12-volt Coil with an external resistor. However, some 12-volt coils have an internal resistor, and you need to know this to avoid having 2 resistors on the Primary side of the Coil.​

​

Running an antique ignition coil is fool hardy because eventually coils breakdown and cease to function without warning. Do not run an original antique coil in a 12-volt conversion because these old coils will not take the stress of 8 to 12 volts. And "Oh by the way," make sure that the brass terminal ends are soldered to the conductor of the high-voltage wire between the coil and the distributor. Keep the Primary wire connections bright & tight, and the plastic parts of the coil and distributor clean.​

I am sure you don't need the "gizmo" he talks about, but the old coils and polarity markings could sure have confused things here??
​

 

Most Pertronix dealers have them if the Mallory is not too old, I used to buy them from a local speed shop.

 

I used the harness supplied from Snyders Model A. I'm printing this out, and will be performing these tests!!

Thanks for all the input guys!!

 

just plain Bill not saying you are wrong just saying that for absoloutley trouble free motoring I have found my el cheapo {about 5 bucks nz] early nisson dizzy best. Turn down the stem till it fits the hole make up a new intermediate shaft bang it on a dyno and fiddle with the little screw on the back until it shows it running spot on then forget about it never have to touch it again I have run it about 15 years, last weekend went on about a 200 mile trip through country including backblock highcountry river crossings riverboulder driving and motorway cruising at about 65 mile an hour just put in the gas and drive

 

RT,

What type of nissan disturbulator did you use - maybe I can find one out here?

 

stovebolt it a very early one in fact I now have several cant remember the exact year but they are common think its early bluebird while you are looking over there start picking up early Holden carbs like 97s but sideways adjustable jets ect

 

My question or questions I should say may have been answered by you guy 100 times but here they are...1) I have a full fendered 28 roadster pickup what size ties can I run on 35 16 inches wheels . 2) I have a winfield aluminum head do I need to have piston reliefs machined in. Thanks for your time..

 

525-550 seems to be a good tire for the front..at least thats what i run
600 also looks great if the car isnt lowered too much. i had to run a smaller tire because of a bit of a rub issues
700-750 seems like a good tire for the rear. i run a 700-18 on mine and it fills the fender real well
tk

 

No, you don't need piston reliefs machined in. Just make sure the pistons don't come up over the deck too high. No more than .025 should be safe. most gaskets are around .060. Highly stressed SBC pistons can grow .035.

 

Will the 700-750 fot the stock wheels okay,,,Thanks to both Tub in The Dirt and Plain Bill for the assistance..Its a stocker motor would like to add the head and maybe alittle more carbueration...Let her breathe alittle better

 

what part of San Diego are you in? where were you when you took that picture?

 

I agree, just got a set of 7.50-16 (firestone) for rear and 6.00 B.F. Goodrich) for the front. and they look great. The front could now drop about 1 1/2" and it would be perfect. Stock front axle, 29 coupe.
Front wheels 16 by 4, rears are 16 by 4 1/2".

No pix cuz I'm getting the wheels painted now.

 

Looks like a good excuse to me! But then, I'm biased, I've got two of those good excuses at home - one 3 years, one 9 months.

Cute kid.

-Dave

 

Bonus! Although someone has kitted it out with a stock dizzy and inlet manifold.
I woke my Diamond B up a little with a Thomas head and a reasonable cam. Pulls the Fordor along fine!

 

I'm glad that you have found the perfect distributor for you. In my early model "A" days I/we would take our latest find, "A"'s of all body styles were cheap back then, down to the Western Auto store and buy a round distributor cap for a buck, scrounge up a set of wires, set the points after cleaning them with the friction strip from a pack of "Gopher" matches and with a spare condenser go down the road driving the snot out of the car. We didn't have too many problems because we didn't know any better and we didn't look for any. Life just seems to have been much simpler back then. I guess I'll just go back out and finish timing my obsolete Mallory dual point distributor in my 2 port.

 

I don't have anything good to add but want to follow the monthly banger chatter.