I have a 1960 389 that turns over, that I just picked up to put in my 60 Catalina. I am trying to save $$ while putting this car together and would like to just get it running for one driving season. I can turn the crank with no problem and I see no scoring in the cylinders. There was nothing but oil in the oil pan when I drained it. I figure I would replace gaskets but am hoping to get around a complete rebuild. I am interested in saving the $$ to put into other parts of the project right now. I ordered rebuild kits for the generator and the starter so far. My question is what should I look for when determining what I need to replace. I do not want to replace something that I don't need to and over do it this year. I am having the ****** rebuilt this winter and doing needed body work. This is my 1st project and am hoping to get the car together and running so any insight or help would be appreciated.
Before you get all fired up to do that 389, look into your transmission rebuild. If you haven't got the rebuild lined up yet, you might be in for a surprise. Although the dual range dual coupling Hydro is a great transmission, parts and someone with the expertise to put one together might not be the easiest thing to come up with these days and the price to put it together will probably reflect that. Being that your 60 already has motor mounts on the side of the block and a conventional cooling system, you might be dollars ahead to find something complete, 65 or later, with a block mounted starter and use a turbo 350 or better yet a 200R4 (you just need something with a short tailshaft to make life easier putting it in your cruciform frame).
I have a 60 389 and it wasn't a cheap rebuild......but dawgs is it worth it. Mines backed by a 55 trans. PM Rocky, he's very knowledgeable about early 389s.
I looked into a later model 400 and I fell into the 389 for next to nothing here so I figured I would go this route. I suppose I will call the shop I was going to go through for the ****** rebuild on Monday and see what kind of price they can put together. I imagine I will have to drop the ****** off and have them look at it. I know of at least one shop that should be able to work on the ******. thanks for the heads up on the high cost on getting the ****** rebuilt.
If the engine is usable, but the transmission is toast, don't give up on the early stuff......I'm not a GTO person by far, but you may be able to adapt an early 389 to a later trans. Bart is a GTO guy.....if I can remember his hamb handle.
Twofosho hit it right on the head. Check out that ****** rebuild first. If you find a shop who can and will rebuild it, you're probably looking at $2K plus.
I'm all for not giving up on the early stuff, especially that 389, but it sounds as if it's a matter of $$ for punisher7. None of the Pontiac blocks before '65 will bolt to late model GM trans. They do need an adapter which will be in the neighborhood of $1K plus the cost of another trans and maybe a rebuild depending on what he gets. There will be additional costs such as driveshaft modification and floorpan/trans tunnel alteration, depending upon which late model trans is used. All that adds up if you're paying someone to do the work. Best to do the math ahead of time.
I'd re-gasket the 389 and clean it up and see what happens. I've done that to a few motors and got lucky most of the time. BE CLEAN WHEN YOU DO IT! I'd do that while your getting your ****** figured out. My Dad had a '60 Buick with the dual-range auto that ran really well. It's gonna be pricey, but you'll save ***loads of time and probably a little money in the long run by using the parts it's designed for. Having adapted early frames to modern drivelines several times I can say for certian that "modernizing" a driveline thakes TIME, MONEY, and planning, followed by MORE TIME, MONEY, and probably a lot of TIME AND MONEY. And then if you got it wrong, repeat previous sentance. I'd say Modenrize only if you desperately need more M.P.G. (i.e. Daily Driver) or maximum performance (i.e. Drag Racer). Other than that, compare initial buy in of modern driveline (engine rebuild, new trans,driveshaft fabrication,all mounts, cables,brackets,fuel supply, cooling system,trans cooler, plan time for engineering the install and the install it's self) compare all that to the cost of operation and decreased down time of remone/rebuild/re-install. Is it going to be worth the money to change it all over or would that same money be better spent on gas out cruizin? Only you can know that awnser, all I can do is relate my own experiences. (I'd stick with the stock trans to make it simple.) It's your first build, keep it simple and you'll finish it. If you complicate it, you might not. Good luck, keep us informed, there's a lot of smart guys here the are willing to give a hand.
I am hoping that this route works. I have a complete gasket set and plan on replacing the oil pan, oil pump, water pump and have the carb rebuilt. I am trying to keep this build relatively simple based on my lack of experience and I would like to get the car running and enjoy it next summer. The ****** I have supposedly shifted when the car was parked 6 years ago, although I have been told that I should have the ****** run through before putting it back in the car. I am hoping a complete rebuild is not needed, but I would rather do it now than find out later that the ****** is shot when I have everything else in place and working. Thanks for all the input everybody. I will keep updates coming as I get work done on this thing.
Cloyes Tru-Roller timing chain & metal cam gear would be worth it. Those engines eat the plastic cam gear they came with.
I wish you well, but I don't see how you are going to really save any money on this deal. A 400/auto that runs can't be that had to find or expensive to rebuild (if it/they even needed to be rebuilt). If you keep the 389, I can see making the starter and generator work right, but then you could potentially have a knocking, smoking car that shifts, starts and charges good.
If you tear that engine down be sure to replace several things (besides the gasket set) while it's apart, at a cost of around $300: Timing set, use a top-quality set like the Cloyes Tru-Roller (has the iron cam sproket, not aluminum). The old timing chain will be pretty stretched-out, causing sloppy ignition timing and retarded cam timing. A new stock replacement factory 066 cam and lifter set, one or more cam lobes is likely to be pretty worn. This along with the timing chain will breathe new life into that 389 if the rest of the engine is in otherwise decent shape. A new oil pump. New main and rod bearings, usually the old cam bearings will be okay. New piston ring set, plain iron is fine. Scuff the bores using a flex hone so they'll seat. Here's a link to the '61 & Older Pontiac Tech subforum on the biggest Pontiac forum on the 'net, you can find the answers to most of your questions there: http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=426 Post a new thread on Performance Years and I'm sure the Pontiac guys who hang out there will help you out.
Replace your oil pan with the one-piece gasket, it is bullet proof, better than the original. Try and get the original type water pump, the new ones with a different type blades don't perform that good. I pretty much did the same thing on my '60 Ventura and been problem free, though, I did have the transmission rebuilt and thought it was worth it. I've replaced most of the engine parts with NOS, the NAPA parts are not worth it. The front hub bearing was one of them (plastic bearing case), got some NOS from CPR and no issues, brake shoes, same thing, make sure you install correctly, there's a short and tall shoe. If you have the manual, you're golden. Also, mine has been a daily driver for just under 2 years now. Good Luck. Ken
Bart is a very knowledgeable Pontiac Guru. I have also been building only Pontiac Engines since I was 17. Now I'm 47 so you can do the math. Glad to help you any way I can. If you have any questions you can't find an answer for on the the Performance Years Forums which will be very unlikely, you are welcome to call me and I'll help you however I can. Dil Brandow cell 918-340-3283
Thanks for all the info! How much work is involved in scuffing the cylinders, replacing bearings and putting new rings in? I am mechanically inclined, but I have no experience with any of this. Would it make sense to just replace the cam bearing if I am replacing the cam and lifters? Or is that a lot of extra work?
I suppose I didnt think about the fact that this car took leaded fuel in its day.. What do I need to do to get it set for unleaded fuel?
As far as the Napa parts should I just avoid them all together? I was planning on buying wheel cylinders or at least wheel cylinder rebuild kjits from Napa. Should I just avoid Napa and all the normal parts store chains for replacement parts?
I am not really trying to save a lot of money, I just don't want to spend money I don't need to right away. I also want to try and keep the project as simple as I can seeing as though this is my first time doing this.
And that is the best at***ude to have. We all like to save a little cash, but it's not about cheaping out, as it is trying to stretch the costs to match incoming funds. I'm glad Bart jumped in, it's a pita to look, copy and paste from my iPhone.
OK I'm at a loss here. How did we get from what is required to rebuild the 389 to the ****** being shot? The '60 if it is an outo should have a slim jim, although not as stout as the original slant pan hydro it may very well be in good shape. Even if it is in need of a freshening it is just a transmission its not majic and isn't any harder to rebuild than any other ******. Back to the original question to find out what you need on the engine no on can give you an education in engine diagnosis in a simple paragraph. Fine yourself an engine man that you truct not to get you pregnant and have him give it a look.
I would think by 1960, engines could run fine without lead. The valve seats really only took a beating on the earlier engines, when the metallurgy of the castings wasn't as good. People have run mid-50s Ford Y-blocks on unleaded until they wore out, without wrecking the valve seats.
1960 Pontiacs are all dual-coupling Hydramatic, not the junk slim-jim Roto-Hydramatic - the only Pontiacs to get those were the smaller 61-64 fullsize (Catalina, Ventura, Gran Prix). It is correct that they're more difficult to get rebuilt right - one reason the folks who had my '60 sold it is because they had tons of troubles with the trans, finally replacing it entirely - where I then put 30,000 nearly trouble free miles on in the next couple years. I've been told it doesn't hurt these to sit, though, by some Pontiac guys, just some fresh gaskets and new fluid and go. As for the motor, if it turns over, it will run, it's just a matter of how involved you want to get. I'd do all the easy gaskets and look over the cam and valvetrain, but if the compression's good I wouldn't even take the heads off. You can put an HEI in your '60 motor - it's a drop in swap with any later Pontiac distributor. The other thing I'd look at is a later (70s) front cover, just so you can use the late water pump, plus they're aluminum and save a few pounds. They'll physically bolt up no problem, the crank seal could be the issue on running it. I suspect if a guy had access to a machine shop you could machine down and drill and tap some holes in the stock bellhousing to make it into an adapter for a late trans. Yes, a bellhousing, it's not very deep but it adapts the block to the trans, which has just a basic round pattern on it, and also holds the starter.
Brake hoses, fan/Gen belts, and radiator hoses are good, but had to replace the oil switch and temp switch several times, same with the front bearings. CPR has L&S bearings, both inner and outer, at about $40 and are OEM, steel retainer and little less expensive too. The original 409 rotor is far superior than the aftermarket ones, the white flimsy ones and as well as the points (106P) and 204 condenser. If you have power steering, I was happy with the power steering pump though, gave them my old one as core and no issues,, the pressure hose is available at CPR too, they have NOS. Also, my transmission is the 4sp Hydramatic and is awesome, this was OEM for my car, who ever purchased it. Wouldn't have wasted my money if it was slim jim type. Good Luck. Lots of good info on this thread too. Also, rember there are three engine types with compression ratio, 425-E economy has lowest and mildest cam, 425-A with two compression ratios and two different types of cams. Mine is 10.25:1 and the highend is 10.75:1 (Bonnevilles with three 2's) This info is in Hot Rod magazine May 1960. Ken
Thanks for all the input everybody. I really appreciate it. I spent some time today calling around and found a shop that can rebuild the hydramatic. I don't know what what the final cost is going to be, but for a complete overhaul parts will be $650.00. I will call back on Monday to talk to the only guy there that works on the hydramatics. Hopefully I can take it in in the next couple weeks and get it looked at. The name of the shop is Dunham Transmission's for anybody that lives in southeastern WI.
For the HEI distributor will any distributor out of a 74-80 pontiac fit in the 1960 389? Most of what I have read is that the distributors fit 67+ 389's. I can't find a lot of reading material on the subject for the 60 389. It seems that the distributors are relatively inexpensive and it seems like a relatively simple conversion.
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