Advice on initial starting of a rebuilt 354 hemi

It’s nearly time to fire up the 354 Hemi in my ’34 <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com</st1:City>Plymouth for the first time. I haven’t done the initial start on a Hemi, or any other engine for that matter, so I want to make sure that I do this right. So I need some HAMB advice. But first, some background might be helpful.

The engine, to the best of my knowledge, was rebuilt recently but I have no do***entation of what was done. The block and the heads are very clean so they must have been cleaned. All the pistons appear new and the pistons on the p***enger side are all stamped .040. The lifters appear new but the valve stems are pitted so I think they are old. The heads haven't been off since the rebuild. When I had the oil pan off it looked like all the fasteners on the bottom end had been replaced. The fasteners and springs on the valve train looks new as well. I’m ***uming the valves have been adjusted and everything in the block and heads has been ***embled and torque to specifications. I’ve turned the engine over by hand a few times with the plugs out and the valve covers on and nothing seems to bind. It ‘feels’ tight when I turn it by hand.

The engine is now in the car. I’ve installed the intake with a pair of Edelbrock 4 barrels and plumbed in the fuel lines with an electric fuel pump. I have wired an HEI ignition and put in new Autolite 85 plugs gapped to .035. I’ve managed to plumb the coolant lines for the oddball water connections in the intake since this is a truck hemi.

So the next step is to start it up, right? Here are some specific questions:

Do you think it’s safe to ***ume that the engine was ***embled and torqued properly? Like I said, the engine turns by hand without interference and ‘feels’ tight.

Is it okay to put 6 quarts of Valvolene 20W-50 in the filler or do I need to do a ‘pre-oiling’ process? I’ve seen some rebuilders turn the oil pump with an electric drill to get oil throughout the engine or use some pressurized pre-oiler. I’m hoping to get away with just adding the oil and start. I would have to tear down the top end to get the intermediate shaft out and I don’t have a pressurized pre-oiler.

Are there any other ‘gotcha’s I should be thinking about? I just want to make sure I’m doing this right. And yeah, I know, I should really buy the early hemi engine book.

 

I would definitely recommend pulling the distributor and running the oil pump with a drill motor until oil appears at it's "destinations". If you choose not to do that, then pull the sparkplugs (and keep fuel out of the carbs) and turn the engine over with no compression load until oil is circulating, then put the plugs in and start it. The dual 4 bbls are no bonus when starting a fresh engine in my opinion, but if thats what you got I guess you have to go with them. If the cam and lifters are fresh units, then engine should be run at about 2000/2500 rpm for about twenty minutes to 'break-in' the cam lobes/lifters. I would use something lighter than 20W/50 oil. Maybe 5W/20 to facilitate rapid oil circulation and I would strongly recommend GM EOS (engine oil supplement) or use a racing grade oil like Brad Penn or equivalent to get a good dose of zinc additive for the cam break-in. Be sure your cooling system is ready to go. I usually put a healthy household electric circulating fan in front of the radiator.


Ray

 

AS Above, Cannot emphasize enough, Pre-oiling, and add Zinc.
The newer oils do not cotain zinc. and you need it especially for initial start wear.

 

First word of advice is don't ***UME anything!! Just because you've been informed it's been rebuilt and rebuilt properly, doesn't mean it has (speaking from experience here).

I can't add much to what's already been said. You have to pre-oil and make SURE that the rockers are flowing oil. To do this, I like to run the oil pump (obviously with the distributor out) with a drill and driver for the pump. Then I'll crank the motor over to allow the cam to open it's oil paths to the rockers. Might take a bit for the rocker shafts to fill up, but it's very important that they are oiling correctly. You won't see gushing or squirting of oil. Just seeping, for lack of a better description. Once you see that oil up there and your oil pressure gauge shows pressure, you are good to go.

Joe Gibbs BR oil... http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/products/breakin/index.html

You DEFINITELY want to make sure you're running oil or an additive with high Zinc content. I personally like to run the Joe Gibbs brand oil for start up, but I'm sure there are similar oils out there. Make sure you use a good quality oil filter as well. No cheap Fram ****. Use good quality oil and filters. You only get one shot at this.

If you're not sure if the valves are adjusted properly, I would do that too.

The other thing you're going to want to do is video the start up so we can see it too!

Good luck! Sounds like fun!

 

I'm about to fire a motor my son and I have been working on for almost 2 years, and I am doing everything I can to ensure the initial firing and break in are perfect. I remember what my 8th grade math teacher told us about "***uming" anything - "when you ***ume, you make an *** out of U and ME." Go thru and double/triple check everything. If you have a buddy who's good with a wrench, have him come in behind you and QC your work. After staring at that motor for weeks, I know there are things I missed... and with all the blood, $weat, and tears we put into that Poly, I would rather swallow my pride and let a buddy or some fellow HAMBers troubleshoot me rather than spin a bearing or fry my top end. So... listen to the sage advice above, and post a video when you light it off for the first time!!

 

what he said !!! i would look at the valve train closely also !!! i got burnt on my 1st "old hemi" .when said engine was gone through , were the rocker shafts cleaned internally ? i put a **** load of money in my 354 and learned a valuable lesson about old , baked on , non detergent oil that was run in the motor in the past . i didnt take the end plugs out of the rocker shafts to clean out the old gunk , started new motor , ran very well , then developed rocker problems . what happened was , after the engine ran for some time and got the old gunk in the shafts loosened up , it plugged the oiling holes and lost oil to several rockers . im just sayin , im not trying to scare you , but these old hemis can be a little expensive to go through for a second time .

 

Thanks for all the advice. Gotta love the HAMB! I’ve been staring at my motor for 2 years as well. I sure don’t want to screw this up because I was careless or uninformed.

mopar210 - I don't know if the rocker shafts were cleaned internally.

Definitely going to do the pre-oiling process and include the zinc additive.
<O
Just to be clear, when using a drill to drive the oil pump are you also pulling the intermediate shaft that drives the cam so the drill is turning the oil pump only?
<O
scooter - what brand filter would you recommend since the one on there now is guilty of being orange?
<O
And you can count on a video too.

 

All good advice. Also don't forget that you need to initially run the motor at higher rpm's to break in the cam/lifters. After you spin the engine to build oil-pressure, I would do a compression-test...that would probably be the best indicator as to the engine's true internal condition. If all the cylinders read about the same with no wide variances, at somewhere near 125 lbs give or take, you should be good. Good luck, have fun, take a video. On second thought, have someone else take a video...you'll be busy. Besides, we wanna see your happy-dance!...LOL.

 

You should be able to use a welding rod or a wire to fish out the distributor gear so you can get a drill and prime the pump. I pulled mine out a few times before start up. And then - even after all of that, my drivers side rockers were not getting oil. I didn't see it because the ***y lube that was all over the shaft made me think it was seeping oil. After about 100 miles it started ticking and I pulled the valve cover and ahhhh! Dry!

The head gasket has a hole where the oil comes up from the bottom end to feed the rockers. I pulled that head and the gasket was flipped over so the oil hole was closed. You just never know. I would pull each valve cover and look after the cam break in anyway just to see that things look ok.

I am trying to remember what I made my drill rod out of. I think I welded a old intermediate shaft onto a SBC pump priming rod. I think the hemi pump has a slot where the SBC is a hex.

 

It certainly wouldn't hurt to take a little time and go through and clean the rockers if you haven't all ready. It's something you can do in an afternoon if the shafts are in good shape. There are quite a few threads on here about the process, so check the appropriate area in the Hemi Tech section for those (see my sig line for the link to the Index). It's VERY important that they are clean to achieve proper oiling.

For a filter I would run at LEAST a WIX. I think K&N is probably a good high end choice as well. Wix would be fine though. There are lots of opinions on filters on the HAMB. 90% of them will say Fram = risky.

Yes! You will take the intermediate shaft out. Use a wire, as already mentioned, or you can use a CLEAN magnet. Or both. I tend to use a little pen magnet and a wire hanger hook to fish it out. Sort of a pain.

If you only turn the oil pump and not turn the motor over with the starter, chances are you will never get oil to the rockers because the ports won't line up. You can drive the pump with an old intermediate shaft coupled/welded to an extension, or you can buy one. I think Hot Heads sells the priming shafts all ready to go. Also check with Quality Engineered Components. Gary is here on the HAMB and goes by "73RR". He probably sells them as well. Probably even cheaper.

Again, ***ume NOTHING! I bought a "rebuilt" 354 once that not only turned out to be a 331 truck motor, but also had 8 cracked cylinders and the rockers were COMPLETELY full of sludge! I learned that mistake ONCE! Don't learn the hard way like I did. Check everything before you start it, if you can.

 

A couple of thought in no particular order.

Is the camshaft the original used part, reground, or new? Hydraulic or solid lifters? Do you have adjustable pushrods? Have you checked the lash/pre-load?

A very large flat screwdriver can be used to back the intermediate gear out of contact with the cam gear...if the shaft and block are clean. Varnish builds up on the lower portion of the shaft and on old ***emblies it can be a major PITA to pull out. Once the gear is up and away from the cam you can use a strong magnet or a piece of coat hanger (with a sharp 90* bend about 3/8" long) to pull it up through the hole. (When the gear is at the top of the block the wire will lay into the gear teeth.)

We use straight 30wt break-in oil with an extra dose of zddp and we use Wix filters.

At TDC only one head gets oil and finding the other 'sweet' spot can be challenging. As mentioned, if the shafts are clean (and empty) it will take awhile to get oil to the other side. Was ***embly lube used on the shafts? If not, keep a squirt can of oil handy. Yes, we often start engines without the valve covers so we can see what is happening. Early Hemi engines will not coat you and half of the shop with oil spray.
If you are not sure if the rockershafts are clean then pull an end plug and have a look. New plugs are as close as your parts house.
If the shafts are dirty/plugged then DO NOT start the engine.

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I think the camshaft was simply reused. I'm not sure what type of lifters were installed and I think these are regular, non-adjustable push rods. The adjustable ones have nuts on the top, right?



I've done nothing yet to check the lash/pre-load but it is on my list of to do's.

I was going to pull an end plug this evening and see what was inside but then I realized that I'm not sure how to pop that 5/8" plug out.

You all are pushing me off the complacent couch. Ignorance is bliss until you find out sludge in your rocker arms just ruined your engine. Thanks

 

When you pre-lube the engine via the oilpump and a drill make sure somebody turns the engine over by hand while you pre-lube. It took mine awhile before the oil came through the rocker shafts. Good luck.

 

Tap something sharp into the end plug on the shaft, then pop it out with a screwdriver. I believe the replacement plugs are 5/8"...somebody jump in and correct me if I'm wrong. At any rate, they're a common size, and NAPA, etc. carry them. If you DO need to remove the shafts to clean them, make DAMN sure every rocker and stand go back in exactly where they were originally, and facing the same direction. Before I even removed mine from the heads, I metal punched the rockers with the cylinder number...the shafts were stamped "I" and "E" from the Factory, but I stamped an arrow on them and an "L" and "R", and I stamped the stands "L1", "R1", etc. The center stands have the oil feed holes for the shafts, and MUST go in properly. Check the rockers to see if the oil holes are free. I used the appropriate sized drill bits..2 different sizes...and a variable speed battery powered drill to clean/dig out mine. ALL of them were plugged SOLID with a concrete like substance. The shafts had a wire sized p***age in them...the rest was a concrete like substance, too...

 

Yep! 5/8" plugs. I just went out to the shop to look for the Dorman box I had, but I've mis-placed it. I know 73RR has the part number. It's totally standard 5/8" oil galley plug. So if you yanked one out and took it to NAPA or anyone else that carries Dorman products, they should be able to help you. Just buy a box of 'em.

Like 345DeSoto said, pop a hole in the end of the plug and thread in a long bolt with a large washer on it that can be used like a slide hammer or be used WITH a slide hammer, or carefully pry it out with a screwdriver. Just be careful not to damage the inside of the shaft or mar the ends or that will create other problems.

When installing them back in, use an appropriate size drift, socket extension, or deep well socket, to set them back in place. You'll know when they're done moving, if you take your time.

Seems like a majority of the time when an engine is "rebuilt" the rockers get over-looked, for some weird reason. They're just as important as the rest of the engine. I don't get it. So, I would expect the worst and hope for the best! You'll know right way by pulling ONE plug if you're going to be pulling them off the engine or not. If the first one comes out clean, keep going. Easier to replace plugs than replace hemi parts in an ***embled engine. If the first one is dirty, no need to keep pulling plugs. Just pull the rockers off and do a good inspection.

 

Sage advice ^^^^.

Dorman#555-011

Ok, I am not trying to rain on your parade, but I have some issues with what has been said and what I see in the photo. And as has been mentioned, these damned things are expensive to repair so not doing damage is a good rule to follow.

What exactly was done during the 'rebuild'?
Although it is permissible to use an old cam with new lifters, it is not commonly done these days. I have yet to see an old cam that was was good enough for reuse. The wear caused by non-detergent oil will be substantial unless it was, somehow, a low mileage engine or one run on NG/Propane. If the cam was reground then you will have issues with lack of preload.
If they skimped on this, what else is sub-standard?

The additional issue I have is the Ford FE oil filter mount. They work fine on an FE, but unless the adapter is pretty sophisticated the oil will be flowing backward through the filter.... On the FE the top hole in the mount is the feed, on your Hemi, the top hole is the return.
Oh, loose the Fram, get a Wix. Napa Gold is made by Wix.

.

 

I just noticed the truck heads and the dual 4bbl intake WITH the thermostat housing built in. Cool manifold!

I bet those heads have the stock sodium valves in it. May want to take a look at that...

Also interesting to see the original porcelain insulators used with newer wires. I like that too! Any idea what the wires started out as?

 

The intake would be a '54 - 331 piece, several companies made them. Yes, it looks like the exhaust valve rotators are in place. For a street rod, there is nothing wrong with using truck heads as long as you deal with the water port. I am guessing that the alum intake may have been slightly modified. Perhaps 'Idaho' will post a pic of that portion of the manifold.

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Gary, would those be modified 426 wires??

 

Could be 426, except that the 426 set will have one very short wire and another almost too short wire....think about how the dizzy sits/leans to the p*** side. The boots are 426, but they are readily available (how many would you like?) and fit on any 7mm wire. On a 8mm wire you will need plenty of lube.

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8 please! Gonna build some with some 7mm I have sitting here and the porcelain insulators....

 

Might want to squirt a little Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylenders b 4 firing off also. You don't have to dis***emble the top end to get the int shaft out, just get something that'll hook under it.

 

I guess this qualifies as dirty:



The gunk is viscous and sticky. It was built up pretty thick around the front end caps, not as bad farther down the rocker.



If you look at the tip of the brush you can see the grime sticking to the inside of the rocker shaft. So, off they go. Guess I'm going to learn how to restore these things the right way. Thanks again for all the guidance!

 

Here is a better shot of the plug wires with the porcelain plug protectors. The boots are from Hot Heads. Biggest learning on those is to make sure you get the right length spark plug wire terminal. If it's too long the boots won't sit on the top of the tubes right.



The intake is a Weiand 7263 and I have a Weiand remote thermostat housing at the front. I still need to fab a bracket underneath the remote thermostat. The middle coolant port in the truck heads are not blocked off and connect water in the heads through dedicated runners in the intake manifold. I've heard some folks block them off and others run them open. I'll try open for now.

 

That is EXACTLY what was in mine. Yank the rockers and clean 'em out.

There are some really good threads on cleaning rockers here. Read them FIRST!! They will tell you what to look for and what NOT to do. Keep in mind that you MAY have to send these out to be rebuilt, if they have excessive scarring on the shafts as well as being out of spec.

I would say you might want to consider looking a little deeper, since the rockers were obviously skipped during the rebuild process.

Welcome to Hemis!

 

Thanks for the pics! I see the thermostat box is NOT built in. Looked like it was from the first picture.

 

The short answer is I don't know. I can see parts that appear new but my lack of experience coupled with the history of the car leave a lot of uncertainty.

The long answer is I sent the car to a local restoration shop about 4 years ago to have them build it. The car had the original flathead in it then. I found this hemi on craigslist in Portland and had it shipped to the shop to have it put in the Plymouth. The mechanic at the shop said the motor looked pretty good except for some pitting in one of the cylinders. Progress at this shop was really slow. I would show up once every couple of weeks to see what they had done and it was usually nothing new. The motor was at the machine shop and should be back in a few weeks was the answer I usually got. Well, a few weeks later I was reading in the local paper that the shop that was working on my car had been raided by the FBI because the owner had been selling cars on consignment, pocketing the money, and not delivering ***les a**** other charges. After the dust settled I finally got most of my stuff back, including my engine, but no do***entation as to what was done. So it is really up to me, a pretty novice mechanic to be honest, to make sure that I finish this thing right. And I'm motivated to get it right.

That said, my ***umption is the cam was just reused but I really don't know. I really don't know if there was any machine work to the block or the heads. It's becoming more obvious that corners were cut just looking at the **** in the rockers. I'm also su****ious that the pistons on the right side are all stamped .040 but there no stamps on the p***enger side pistons. Does that mean that I'm .040 over on the driver's side only?

Here is a bit more detail on the remote oil filter. Wasn't even aware of the issue you brought up. I'm guessing the adapters at Hot Heads work properly.

 

yup, piston markings definatly raise some ??? marks, though I'd think an exp machinist wouldn't bore one side only. A Mic will tell you the answer. If you havent done so, put hemi tech index in search, buy the shop manual, & probably add Tex Smith's hemi book to your library.

 

If nothing else, you get the hard luck award...

When you pull the rocker ***emblies, you will be removing all of the head bolts, plan accordingly.
Dis***emble one side at a time. This way you have an example of what parts go where. Inspect the bottom of the shaft where the rocker arm sits. This is where the lack of lubrication will show its ugly head. If you can feel anything with a fingernail then it needs a proper rebuild. No, it will not be inexpensive.
On shafts with minimal, but obvious wear, some folks will polish what they have and run it....it might work but you will have excess clearance. Not good. Your choice.

Since the heads are loose you can now inspect the pistons, bores, combustion chambers and valves. Do not be tempted to take another short cut and ****on the thing back up without new head gaskets, it will leak water.

Sorry for your loss.

.

 

If it were MY motor, and I knew I was pulling the rockers off (leaving the heads loose), I would go ahead and pull the heads and have a closer look. Then you can see for yourself what is going on with this so-called "pitting" as well as see what's going on with the pistons. That would raise a flag in my book for sure.

In fact, if it were MY motor, after going through a disaster once, I would probably just pull it all apart and find out what was or wasn't done. You'll sleep better at night and you'll know everything about what's going on with it.

That's just my opinion though. Seems like a lot of money to throw away if something goes wrong. Only costs you time and replacement gaskets if everything mics out and looks good inside. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but sounds pretty sketchy to me.