w***ap gearheads is the HAMB open to other than hotrod questions? ive searched the net, and local book stores all morning trying to find specs like gear lash, and front bearing tolerances in a 1970 m-21. had to pull it out this morning due to some "crunching" but intial inspection seems cool. tryin to get it goin again tonight if possible! THANX <ducks from bein shot down>
Pretend its an old ******...and then just see if the parts feels like it should. Some of them had an anti-rattle plate on the front of the cluster gear to take up clearance between the main drive gear and cluster gear. I don't know of any published lash specs--usually if the gears are not chewed up to bad they'll be ok. Ball bearings should be smooth (add a drop of oil after cleaning in solvent then try it), no pits on the races or balls; end play is ok, but radial play is not ok.
man... im stumped.... all the gears appear to be fine.. the only thing is that when i rotate the tailshaft <in neutral> theres a pretty distinct ping only at first. and all shafts dont have abnormal movement. here is a couple of pics i took http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/h0trod440cid/album?.dir=/9240&.src=ph thanx might just put it all back together and test drive it again
Before you pulled it out what noise did it make and when? T******* in 1st gear, only in neutral......you get the idea. I have had more than a few blow up. Most came from case flex causing the counter gear to break a tooth. If none of the teeth are broken, you have good news. You still need to find the souce of the noise. Start in neutral and spin the input shaft while holding the tailshaft. Then vice versa. Spinning the input shaft will move your counter gear, but not mainshaft. The way your trans sits now there is no lash adjustment you can do, so see if you can figure out what happened. Make sure your shifter is setup the right way too. Let us know what you find, I do have service manuals from 67 I could copy.
when the noise started i was all the way disengaged with the clutch, i rapped on the throttle and at first it sounded like a throw out bearing, noise changing while i pushed the clutch in and out. i pulled into the store to get a few things ..got back in it and the noise happened in reverse again... by the time i got home i was only hearing the noise upon decell in any gear. but not when i was on the gas. when in neutral the tail shaft and the imput shaft operate smoothly and independantly from one another, the imput shaft has alot of play but not more than a 1/8 of an inch movement. been told this is normal all the gears appear to be intact, no major chuncks are missing. the sound came from the tail shaft area, but not a thing is sloppy. reverse gear is fine minus the very front of the gear where its evident that i slam it into reverse on occasion but not abnormal and the marks are consistant throuout the whole cog. your right i do need to find the problem before i put it back in hopefully. i know that there is no gear lash adjustment, but there has to be some kinda spec on it for inspection reasons... no? i really appreciate the input.. Torpedo8
It almost sounds to me like low fluid. Did you check the level? I did look at the pics you posted and from what I can see it looks good. The only check you can do is move the counter gear back and forth. The only shim areas you would have is the input shaft, and countergear. The machining on the cases is usually ok, and if it was running fine before I would look at a bearing. The only other thing I can think to check is the input shaft retainer, it should not have any movement front to back, side to side is the bearing play. Pull the 4 bolts and remove the cover, see if the nut has backed off. All the reverse gears I have seen look like they have been in a fight. Non synchro reverse.....You can push in the clutch and put it in 1st then reverse, that would stop the input shaft and counter from spinning. That should make it easier. If all this looks good we can check the dogs under the shift collar and spring clips. Let me know.
You may have to actually remove and clean and inspect the bearings. And the rollers and shaft and bearing bore in the cluster gear. Bearings can make noise in use, but feel fine when you're spinning the ****** around by hand. If you do take it apart, make sure you have the manual handy to help you figure out what to do. And make a wrench for the nut on the input shaft, use a piece of 1/8" x 3" flat steel strap, cut two notches in it the correct distance apart with the chop saw set at 45degrees, then use the torch to remove the middle part. It's a lot easier to do than finding wrench J-933. Or just find an old 3 speed and swap it in...then if it makes noise, you won't think anythings wrong with it.
eay guys... what do you think of these numbers? imput shaft has .007" play front to back with indicator on top of the retaining nut.. it moved .025" up and down the tail shaft has .025" of play in it the gear lash on 2nd gear with the counter gear wedged was .010" the "walk" travel on the counter gear is .040 and finally , i found out that each gear dont have much "walk" movement... besides 2nd that mofo moves .040 as well when you slide it back and fourth lemme know what you guys think... Toeprdo8
Dumb question but did you check out yer clutch thoroughly, almost sounds as if that might be the culprit?
Before you re-install, be sure you check/replace the pilot bushing in the end of the crank. We had one years ago that was very loose and caused alignment problems with the input shaft. my 2 cents. .bjb
Sounds like the clutch to me too. Pilot bearing, throwout bearing or broken spring are all things to look at. If there's no broken synchro stop bits in the ****** fluid, ****on it back up and check the clutch and front U joint.
I agree with smokin Joe. Also check throwout fit on the fork, may be riding too much on collar. May want to check out www.5speeds.com for Muncie info.
dambit.. the clutch is less than 300miles old... but yea yer right.. i didnt inspect the clutch throughly....i will do that at lunch, and i have a new piolit bearing so i will install that as well.. guess you cant read a book by looking at the bellhousing
just took the clutch ***embly apart. everything seems right on... the throwout bearing spins consentric with minimul play, the piolit bearing is good too, altho i think im going to replace it. no brokin springs in either the pressure plate or the clutch disc and the wear pattern is even on the pressure plate n flywheel. everyone seems to think that the ****** is cool, welp guys, i dunno wtf is goin but the only way to find out is drive it till i shatter it... let me go put it back together today after work and spin some brodies, we shall see Torpedo8
Try this site. I am sure Jon can answer your questions as well as supply needed parts. http://www.kajunjon.com/Main/
I am going to be in the same boat. I visually checked my muncie and couldn't see any problems. Bearings are funny - they can look fine and be bad.
If the input shaft is moving up and down .025" with the ****** sitting in it's normal position, and the outer race of the bearing is a tight fit in the case, and the nut is tight, then the front bearing is worn out.
thanx squirrel! Thats Exactly what i wanted to hear.. i didnt get a chance to put it back in but now im not gonna fux with it... Ill replace the bearings and sync gears while im at it. looks like itll be sometime next week so ill let ya know how it went
The front bearing is for radial location only. Until it's supported in the pilot bearing it will have a lot of runout if you just grab it and force it up and down or side to side. My experience has been if the pilot bearing is a snug (reasonably) fit to the input pilot your good to go. You can also get a needle bearing (caged) to replace the bronze pilot bushing but be sure it is well lubricated with a moly base grease when you install it. Frank
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