First engine build: 8ba Ford Flathead

Heal quickly and don't push yourself. I really enjoy your attitude and this is an excellent thread.

 

Glad to hear it went well and that your home. Make sure and wash off the grease under your nails before seeing the Dr. next time.

Michael

 

Get well soon. I'll be following your build for flattie info.

I've yet to pull the engine out of my "48 but did pull the heads and soak everything. The exhaust valve train pretty rusty. Exhaust manifolds not plugged when stored.

 

I'm still recovering and itching to get back to work on the engine. The doctor says I can't lift more than 10 pounds, so I've been researching, shopping and trying to learn a bit while I'm shut down.

I'm trying to be really careful about what I purchase for this engine. Until I get it apart, tanked and magnafluxed, I don't know if I have a good block. To me, it doesn't make much sense to buy a lot of actual engine components before I'm sure that this block is good to go.

With that said, I'm collecting some tools that I may or may not need in this build. The first purchase was a tool that's mentioned on a website that I've found in my flathead research:

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_valveremoval_tools-2.htm

The KD 918 Valve Guide removal tool. I had bid on one and it went up to ~$125. so I let it go. The next day or so, I found one and scored it for $25.00. Go figure. I guess supply and demand is weird that way. Anyhow, here's what it looks like:



It's turned into an obsession for these days that I can't actually wrench on anything. In trying to collect some of the old tools that folks used on these engines, I like to think that the tools have some spirit to them and would like to be used again.
I mean, they're probably not going to make stuff like this anymore, and I certainly don't have the ability to cast a reproduction. Anyhow, it was cool to me.

I'm still keeping an eye out for one of the valve spring compressor bars. How cool would it be to find one of the old Ford garage versions? Very cool, in my opinion.

I've done some research on transmissions and my options too. If I understand it correctly, I've got to find a 8ba bellhousing and starter plate from a Ford truck of that era if I want to do a swap to a t-5 (at least, that's what all the adapter offerings seem to suggest).

I've got my eyes peeled for one of those bellhousings, but I've got to wonder if the transmission that came with the engine isn't a better (read: more inexpensive) idea. In order to follow that path, I've got to determine what transmission that I have, and what ratios are in it. In this, I'm going to need some help. Here's a picture of the transmission:



So if anyone can help me with IDing this transmission, I would be most grateful. If I can track down the gear ratios, I can figure out if I can use it with the axle that I've got. The initial thought that I had was to get higher (lower?) gearset in the rear end.

I think I might have spent money that I didn't need to in this regard. I ended up ordering a 9" rear from an older model Ford Bronco. It's installed on the chassis thanks to Mr.Ford while he was at Crushproof Custom Auto in Austin (Those guys are top-notch, if you need work done around here).



Anyhow, my thoughts on the diff. were that I needed a gear in the rear to keep the rpms down at highway speed. Here's the dumb part, as I think of it right now: I also had them install a Detroit Locker. With a 3.50 gearset and the 8ba, I don't think I'm going to do much wheel spinning. Live and learn I guess.

So in closing for this post, if someone can steer me in the right direction for identifying the transmission, I'd be most appreciative. I can run through the formulas I've seen online and determine if I really need an adapter and different transmission after all. Thanks everybody!

-Nev

 

First off I'm glad to see you back at it even if its just gathering parts and knowledge of what needs to be done. And you have some good insight there on making sure you have a "good" block and other components before buying a lot of parts. On gearing and the T-5 conversion, I guess one thing you should check out is what your engine will be turning RPM wise at 65? mph or what ever speed you want to run at. Check out this site; www.richmondgear.com Look up your gearing under their "Street" calculator and see what tire size, overdrive ratio, etc. works out best for you on your application. Also a big thing that comes into play is the cam for your engine. Finding one that produces the best torque at the overall RPM range so you don't have a dog at takeoff and something that runs great at 90 mph plus!! Its probably a lot of extra money but a lot of cam companys will grind you a cam to your car/trucks specs by plugging in all the answers you can provide them with. Just my thoughts on your project.

Michael

 

Sounds like the surgery went well; that's got to be a relief. If you're well enough to get out and around, you can pass the time perusing Craig's List, e*ay, local swap meets and other miscellaneous places for speed parts. They are getting scarcer and scarcer, but they're still out there, especially for the 8BA's. Sometimes when I can't sleep at night, I'll prowl around these sites looking for stuff. I bid on just about anything that interests me and seems to me priced under the market. If the object is not trashed and priced right, buy it whether you need it or not. Over the last two years I have scored 2 Mallory dual-point distributors and a Fenton 4-bbl intake for under $100 each. I have a good use for the manifold, but I now have 2 extra Mallorys with $145 in them. I'm sure that down the road sometime, I can turn the distributors into some extra cash, which always helps. Plus, it's kinda neat to have this stuff on the shelf just to look at. You'll impress your friends too. I do it mainly for it's amusement value, but every once in a while, I hit paydirt. There are a lot of folks out there that don't know what they have and will let it go cheap, Also, some people have been hit hard by the economy and are just dumping stuff.

Good luck with your project; I am looking forward to seeing what's up with the block.

 

-Where is a good place to buy a new hardware kit?

 

Subscribing also... I too, one day will be tearing into my '50 8BA. Right now, it is sitting in a barn, in the back of my '64 truck. Both waiting...

 

Since no one else has answered, I'll take a chance and tell you that the transmission shown is a non-overdrive early '50's ('49-'53). Ford that probably was mated to the engine when new. The location of the transmission mount on the tail shaft was moved in '51. I believe that the one shown is the later ('51-'53), but CRS kicked in and I'm not sure which is which without looking at them. I'd go out in the shop to look, but it's more than 1500 miles. With the car you're building, the location of the mount shouldn't make a lot of difference.

I'm using one of these in the flathead -powered "T" Tub I'm building, only of the overdrive variety. I'm using a '50 Ford 3.55 rear end, and will use the overdrve for long distance cruising only, to greatly simplify the hook up. I figure this should be plenty strong for my purposes.

 

For my hardware, I was planning on ordering from Red's Headers. Seems to me that they're pretty specialized in their flathead parts offerings, and I want to support a company like that. The catalog site is:

http://www.reds-headers.net/

 

I checked that out and with 3.50 gears, desired speed of 70, 31 inch diameter rear tires (according to the Coker Tire site; they're 7.50-16" Firestone Deluxe Champions), it puts my RPM at 2655.

That seems awful high RPM wise, doesn't it?

 

Do you know if there's any designation for this transmission that I can research? I wouldn't be opposed to rebuilding it, if it needed it as well. I'd just need to find a book on it.

 

I' m spending he winter in Florida, so I don't have any access to my books, manuals etc., but I'll tell you what I think I know. IIRC, these transmissions were manufactured by Ford, not by anyone like Borg-Warner, so they don't have a designation (T-5, T-10, etc.) per se. I believe the '49- '51 factory manual (available in reproduction form) has a fairly comprehensive section on this transmission. I also believe that parts aren't that hard to find from the folks that specialize in early ford parts. I think this transmission would be strong enough to meet your needs (at least temporarily), the only down side being the lack of an overdrive ration for high speed cruising.

 

You seem to have your priorities in place..health first, then flathead. Good luck with both.

 

Best of luck for a speedy recovery! If you want to go to a 5 speed trans, or for at least an interesting read, check out Cornhusker Rod & Custom here on the HAMB. They have a complete adaptor package to put a T-5 s-10 or blazer trans (non world class) behind a flattie. You can run deeper gears (3.90 or 4.11 around town,) and pull 5th gear and you're in overdrive for highway cruising and a lower RPM for the flattie. Good luck! Bob

 

Just found this thread , don't know too much about ford flatheads , have been around many stripped ones in a friends shop and have asked him many questions although i've never worked on one.
I like the way you are describing your tear down of the engine and have learned from some of the questions you have posted and the informative reply's give.

I wish you a speedy recovery , please don't over do it health first then the flathead.
Subcribed

 

Nevala, glad that you're on the mend.

Just a note on removing the valves. It's one of the trickier jobs in dismantling a flathead. Tricky can become ugly when the valves are frozen.

Removing the valve guide retainer clip can be very difficult regardless of the tools you have. The clip is usually wedged in really tight, and the the trick is to drive the valve guide down enough to loosen the valve guide's grip on it.

Not too bad if the valve is free and sliding in the guide. Too often the valve is stuck and getting a tool, like the one below, under the valve is almost impossible.



Best advice is to really understand exactly how the valve assembly is put together and what has to be done to get it out.

 

Check out the Van Pelt website for your tranny IDing.
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_home.htm

 

I have one of these rearends. Do you know what the spring came out of they used to mount it? I'm having alittle bit of a tough time getting one thats just right.

 

Thanks for this information; I didn't even think to look in the Motor Manual that I have that covers the engine. Sometimes you just need more eyes on the subject. You are exactly right, good sir Tubman!

 

Bob, their solution still requires finding a truck bellhousing and starter plate. The car bellhousing is more closed, the truck bellhousing's opening at the rear is like a big ring. I'm keeping my eyes peeled for one, but I can't violate my "no parts til I am sure of a good block" rule...

...It's getting tougher every day.

 

I must have missed this question when I was in the hospital. The reason I mention it is because of a couple confusing parts of Ron Bishop's book "Rebuilding the Famous Ford Flathead".

and

Now he doesn't specify which engine has the "babbitt lined cam bearings". I read that the early engines had babbitt main bearings at least. Do the later 8ba engines forgo babbitt completely?

The point may be moot anyhow, since I'm on my tool buying frenzy part of this build. Van Pelt Sales offers a cam bearing removal/installation tool for $89.00 plus shipping.

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_tools_forsale.htm

I'm interested in getting one of these tools, as I think I remember reading horror stories here on the H.A.M.B. about people getting their engines back with the cam bearings rotated out of alignment with oil passages.

Is this something that can happen with a flathead?

If I can install my own cam bearings, I can be sure they're installed correctly.

 

The rear spring is a Posies Super Slide 32-34 Ford straight/narrow from Pete and Jakes (P&J part number 3058).

It's mounted with a Pete and Jakes Ford rear spring mount kit (P&J part number 5019 (For 3" diameter housing))

 

As I've mentioned in previous posts, I've been on a bit of a tool buying frenzy, paying particular attention to items that have a hint of history to them.

If there isn't already a "Vintage Tool" social group, I should consider starting one. Perhaps that's better left to an account on The Garage Journal instead, but I do plan on keeping the tools I've bought in my Father's wooden US Army toolbox from his service in the Korean War. I think he would have liked that.

The last tool I picked up was the one that I had set out to purchase in the first place; a Valve Guide pry bar. I could have bought the Speedway branded model for a price less than I paid, but it's not too far off. Besides, the new shiny model still at the store will still find a dancing partner, I'm sure of it.

Since I don't have it in hand yet I don't have a picture of it to post now, but it's made by the Zim Manufacturing Company. It appears to have been used quite a bit and that's fine by me.

One tool purchase that I had posted a picture of previously was the K-D 918 Valve Guide Puller. In my research, I found that the tool was patented in August of '39 by Harry W. Kulp of the K-D Manufacturing Company (presumably the "K" in K-D tools).



Finding the patent for the tool helps a relative novice like me greatly. The patent description can act as an "owner's manual" of sorts: The description text, while wordy, clearly describes the usage and limitations of the tool. If you're interested in reading the patent for this tool yourself, here's the link:

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=m0NRAAAAEBAJ - K-D 918 Valve Guide Puller.

Another Flathead specific tool purchase that I made was probably unnecessary, but I thought it would make a handy option to have during the valve and guide disassembly process: The K-D 700 Valve Spring Lifter / Compressor. This patent was awarded to Mr. Kulp on December 5th of 1950.



The patent link for this tool:
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT2533121- K-D 700 Valve Spring Compressor

Which brought me back to the final tool purchase; the Zim Valve Guide pry bar. After finding the patents for the other tools, I thought it would be easy to find the Zim Tool. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to track down the connection between the tool's patent and Zim Manufacturing. I can only presume that Zim didn't receive the patent for the tool, or I don't know the correct name for the tool itself.

I did find that Mr. Herbert A. Berkman won several patents for the Zim Manufacturing Company and interestingly enough, received a patent in April of '43 for a Valve Spring Compressor that bears an uncanny resemblance to the 1950-awarded K-D 700 unit.

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=B6VEAAAAEBAJ - Berkman's Valve Spring Compressor patent.

Anyhow, I hope I haven't bored folks to death with this post.

In closing, I want to thank everyone for the recovery well-wishes. I began Cardiac Rehab appointments today, which is another step towards being able to get back to work on the 8ba. I was even able to describe the specific motions that I need to be able to do, and they're tailoring my exercise regimen specifically to those motions.

I hope you get a chuckle imagining someone "air-torque-wrenching" to a nurse.

-Nev

 

Only to give you a little warning about what may be ahead of you ...

Prepare yourself for having to remove a valve assembly when the valve guide is frozen in the block and the valve is frozen in the guide ... with the valve in the closed position and the pistons frozen as well.

I do not know a "smooth" way of doing it and have been hoping someone will offer a technique.

Your tools are great, and they will be used. But, they are not going to help in the above situation.

 

Had seeral "disassembly" struggles with badly froze motors. If trying to save the block I try my pry bar to pull the guide down, you can break the end off the guide fairly easily. Next step is to pry up the valve spring, most likely the valve still will not slide. Taking off the keepers won't help much. If the valves are rusted bad they will be smaller by defacing, you might get new anyway. It would be nice to have your KD tool &cut the valve shorter & press it up spray it with piss grease &work it out then the guide could be driven down and out the bottom. Reds &others have complete kits new guides and all. My fork bars work well for recently run motors dis assembly &put back together, but not much use for petrified engines.

 

Yeah, that's a really good example. I'd like to read the latest and greatest thought on what it would take to do that as well. I've been so lucky so far during the tear-down and I'm hoping my luck will continue.

I really wish I had an update on this actual engine teardown and rebuild, believe me.

 

Great Thread !! subscribed

 

Having "been there...done that" a couple of years ago after my "valve job"...trust me...those rehab nurses are angels and even though at times you may go home sore in places you didn't know you had...it's definitely worth all of the hard work ahead. Hang in there buddy...looking forward to seeing your flattie come together.

 

I had the same issue with my SBC. You've just gotta dance a litte... (Or hump a football. That made me laugh out loud)