Starting with a fairly decent, but well used 1938 Chevy coupe. Someone else hacked on a aftermarket Mustang ll crossmember, stock A arms, (at least it measures to be in the correct place), also torched holes in a disc brake differential mounting brackets to be able to get square 'U' bolts thru and bolt the diff in place ( one side was forward 2: other back4") torched off the original knee action shocks at the arm joint. the man that owns the car took it back and asked me to fix it. and added several other things he wanted done, when I gave him a price he was shocked and argued with me that I was way too high. wants to replaced the bottom 'cap' of the frame from about the firewall forward, (is rusted out) finish welding up the front crossmember remove and replace the disc brake diff with a 9" ford standard drum brake diff, build crossmember for rear shocks, build motor mounts and install a 235 hot rod 6 cyl and automatic trans, install an aftermarket trans crossmember, install a non power rack 3 "u" joints and a support bearing for the steering, install a flaming river steering column, build the column shifter to trans mechanism build battery box, repair the cut out firewall (dip has been cut out to clear a motor,) install gas pedal linkage, install aftermarket underfloor M/cyl ***embly, (booster etc) and run all the brake lines, flex lines connections etc run new fuel lines install the gas tank and electric fuel pump wire the entire car chop the top 3 1/2" suicide the doors (he supplies the aftermarket 'hidden hinges') repair a bent rear body cross support install and connect a new aftermarket 3 gauge instrument panel install power windows. install remotes for doors and windows he has said he will supply all new parts. SO, my question is... what would you guys estimate for a total cost for all this work as a package, I want to see if I am as far off as he seems to think I am. thanks for anyone that responds
Sounds like a lot of time needs to be spent doing what needs to be done. Sounds like he wants a lot of work done for hack prices.
$40,000. Sounds to me like this guy needs to be scared away. He could turn out to be a lingering P.I.T.A. Sometimes there are customers you don't want.
Sounds like you need a different customer? I learned a long time ago that you don't have to take every job. I know times are tuff but this one doesn't sound like it is starting off well. May I suggest you break down the project into phases and try one phase at at a time. Smaller amounts taste better and gives you an out.
Plus working with what he picks and brings you to work with automatically adds 20% to the labor costs due to the extra effort to sort things out over what you may have picked or chosen or just built from scratch. I'd say sit down with the list and itemize it out piece by piece with each step having it's own pricing on the list. A total of **** $$$ may seem like a big hit but when it is listed out as $$ to repair the front frame rails $ to install crossmember $$$ to build and install rear shock crossmember, SS to swap rear ends and install the new one correctly. You already have that figured out in your head or written down anyhow so it shouldn't be hard to list out the prices on paper. Your end price will still be the same. Plus following behind someone else always takes more work and time than just starting from scratch yourself.
I would recommend that you do it in different stages.......... Stage one get the front end straightened up..... then stage two.... etc... Then if you don't like the guy or he doest like you you can walk away.....
I dont do other peoples work ,or clean up others **** ups, so I dont know if my opinion counts..and i dont do this stuff for a living, its still a hobby for me But from the sounds of this guy as a customer..I would already have cold feet. If he comes back to you..I think you should add another 10G's to the price you gave him...for the pain and suffering you are going to endure dealing with him if he decides to pick you as his punching bag. and maybe that additional 10G will put him in orbit and send him packing., just sounds like the customer from hell just stepped into your shop
Wel ****. No wonder it is all fuct up. People think " Yeah. I am getting a smokin deal! " Turns out, they are getting smoked! But as stated, you get what you pay for. You should be more worried about what shops charge in your area. If you work from your home, then the price could afford to be a bit lower. This way you both get an advantage. But either way he is looking at spending a TON of money. None of that is just bolt in. Fabrication is required. Then wiring. Then the bugs have to be worked out etc etc etc. Stand your ground. Hope any of that helps.
He commissioned the previous hack work paying someone who will work for peanuts. Thats what he expects of you too.
He doesn't have enough money to pay you for your time. He'll end up on the HAMB in 6 months complaining that you are taking too long and insist on using junk parts. And people will chime in taking his side, and you'll be called every name in the book. Next thing you know your dog is missing and your daughter is knocked up. I've seen it a dozen times.
Tell the guy it's not like ***embling a Monogram car model with him bringing parts that YOU hope will fit. You must charge him by the hour (time and materials) or you are going to be in a world of hurt. Chopping the roof will be several thousand and then you have to do the garnish mouldings and gl***. That's extra. Just do one thing at a time and have him "pay as you go" for each job you complete. I have a gut feeling this customer is going to not be satisfied no matter what you do and will be looking for a reason not to pay you. Mechanics lean may be in your future.
How about call this a time and material job.you are going to spend time taking apart the job to make ready to start the right way, so that takes time and material. Sit down with the owner and agree on an hourly rate and a material guestamet and have him agree to it in writeing and agree to a pay period (each week,twice a month) or work stops come get car with payment in full to that point before it leaves and start storage fees. Get it in writing ,each you have a signed copy,be honest about your time and material costs as close as you can. Now the story, I have a friend here in michigan who does this and it works for him. He did some work on my car(36 Buick 3 window coupe) and I ask him to let me know when the bill got around 1500 each time or so let me know and I would pay and it worked well each time I had to pay.Payment are a lot easier some times than lump sums. Now I have to get my lazy **** going again and finish it. Good luck with the job and take lots of pictures. Just my two cents
I would suggest, as others already have, that you quote him an hourly rate. Then focus on one part of the project (possibly the rearend install), and have him pay you for that job (once finished) before continuing on. If all goes well up to that point, move on to another job (like repairing the bottom of the frame) and handle it the same way (paid in full when that part of the work is finished). I would have a hell of a time quoting for all the work he is requesting. If he decides this is not the way he wants to handle this project, let him go somewhere else. This way IF there is a difference of opinion as to how much something should have cost ... and he refuses to pay you the full amount, you are only out the money for that one small segment of the overall job. No sense getting into a dispute once the entire job is almost finished. Limit your loss by limiting the amount of work done before payment (as in "get paid each step of the way"). I did a ton of work building a drag ch***is for a 1927 roadster. We were never able to come to an agreement as to how I was to be paid, at some point I finally realized that I was not going to be getting paid anything so I kicked it out of the garage (dropped it off at his house). Never did get paid a penny for the work, but I did learn a valuable lesson. My mistake was starting the work (and almost finishing the entire ch***is) before coming to a payment agreement ... (just thought I should add, this job was for a "friend", yes friends do help each other out BUT building a round-tube drag ch***is from scratch, with no help from him is going way too far. He had initally agreed to pay for the work but was having trouble deciding how to handle payment ... once I realized he really had no intention of paying, I stopped working on it ... stupid on my part? OH YEAH). Won't happen again to me though.
.....I would walk away from this job......sounds like he would ***** about everything when you're done....this guy sounds like an ***hole from the start.....I 'd put money on it he would be one after his car is done..too..no matter who's done his work
If he spoke to you with any tone of disrespect while trying to haggle the deal let him go and do his business else where. If he looked at you as if he trusted your price and acted in a respectful and trusting way and only seemed to want to seal the deal with a 5% or less discount and respectfully asked you in a non threatening caring and concerned way then he may deserve a response. This is one rule that applies in the most absolute way in business: Never under any cir***stances work for any one who does not respect you. And rule 2 Never let anyone who does not respect you do work for you. As for how much to charge, you would have to provide local comps, your overhead, your preferred labor rate and a rough guess as to how much total time your project requires. From my experience: it is not a good practice to let the customer supply product, they tend to feel that all of the consumables and small discretionary parts are supplied magically by the elves.
I did some work with the customer supply parts and it became a nightmare. Wrong parts, used parts that did not fit. I finally told him to take the car home!
Posted, were some good tips on how to define the work and reach an agreed upon contract. I would break it into steps w/an estimate for each step. Early tasks each need ongoing updates and +/- 10% aspect...that being YOUR responsibility, his completed car will be enhanced by allowing some flexibility on how you best carry it out. Maybe his expectations will be tempered by the cost of the first tasks you mentioned?
If you gave him a quote already I would guarantee it wasn't enough cause once you start digging you'll be cursing yourself for not getting more. The right answer to how much is "time and materials". Sorry Ebb, I think 40K is low. Start with frame repairs and then suspension, and so on. If he bails on you or becomes a douche you can settle up for each stage and he can walk when he runs out of $$ or you get tired of him. Some guys just don't understand how involved things can be and some think it's still 1955 when their car is involved. Others don't get that there isn't a book called "1938 chevy: rusted to hell make it awesome and do it as fast as you can for as little as possible" flat rate manual. You need to say no if there are bad vibes. There will be more work elsewhere.
I won't quote a price on a project like that. Too many things get overlooked on a quote. Time and materials is the only way. I have new customers leave the car here for a few days. Then, I tell them how much I got done and how much they owe. If they don't like the progress per dollar, I have them pay me half and pick up the car. No-one's done the latter in my 20 or so years in business
I love this! Kind of like all the material in my shop racks was free so I should just give it to them. Happens so often I think I might hang this up in the office.
There would be absolutely no way I would EVER try to quote that as a package deal! my shop rate is 50.00 an hour, take it or leave it. The way I always aproach this kinda deal is this - bring it in, lets get started, if after a week or so (you set the time frame FIRMLY) you don't like my work or progress, pay me for my hours, take it out and go. Easiest way to reduce hard feelings all the way around. Kinda like a trial deal to feel each other out. The other thing I do for my customers is create a log book that I fill out each day at the end of the days work. This does two things - lets your customer know what took what hours in that day, and also gives you the chance to log what part numbers were used for future replacement issues. It doesn't have to be big and exotic, just small enough to keep on board the car. Alway nice to know what radiator hose hose you cut up to make fit when your standing by the side of the road 450 miles from home...
As others have posted...time and material. That"s about the only way I see you can cover you *** and not risk losing it!
A lot of you are baggin' on the custommer sayin' he'll be a PITA. It sounds like this guy got burned and now might be a bit bitter that he has to spend again. I agree though the only sensible way to handle this job would be in stages. Explain to him that because you're fixing someone elses hack job you could be opening some unknown cans of worms. Happened with my chevy recently getting some bodywork done and found the only bad spot (previous repair poorly executed)in the whole car. It happens. The log book of your progress is a great idea and if done with pictures will put the customer at ease with the knowledge that his money is being spent well and he's not getting burned. Last time I had a chop quoted was about 10 years ago and it was $5000 body worked and in primer.
Not about to try and quote that without seeing the car. But i will say that you have listed one hell of a lot of work there and it's well in to the mid 5 figures in my shop. Of course I'm in prime So Cal real estate so our rate is $95.00 an hour. A lot of guys are knocking the customer, but I think anytime a job is that big, it will shock the customer and he will be surprised and even try to argue. At that point, I break it down for the customer so they see where the total is coming from. If it still seems high and pointing out that a lower price only gets him the type of work that is needing to be re-done and he still thinks you are too high, then Thank him for his allowing you to quote on the work and wish him luck. I have turned around many customers that way and they have become good customers with referrals to their Friends.
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