I'm no fan of the DMV, but in a lot of these cases I'm reading they're only doing their job. If the law says you need documents a,b, and c to title a car, and you don't have them, how does that make the clerk an asshole? Which brings to mind something that I've read here more than once. Guys do NOT want to title their cars as 'home built' 'special construction' etc etc. They want to title their fiberglass bodied, homebuilt 2x4 framed, sbc powered car as a 1923, 1927, 1932, whatever. I understand that - I really do - but I don't think some of you guys realize how many laws you're breaking buying a title or using a 'historical document' from another car to register your home built - it's absolutely fraud, and in many places it's a felony. That's part of what got ol' Boyd and some of the other pro builders in hot water a while back.
Sorry you take that to be politics the fact is it is a matter of survival for what we care about. The only way to survive for us is to affiliate and make them fear US!
Not sore with the clerk at all. The lawmakers, maybe. You're supposed to blindly invest hundreds of dollars and stacks of paperwork with no promises or refunds. Send it in the mail, and hope "that's enough this time". It would be a little less un-nerving and impersonal if everything was handled in person at the state inspection facility.
A lot of it has to do with "Petty Bureaucrat Syndrome." Low level workers often don't have the authority to say, "yes," so to feel empowered, they say, "no." The solution lies in your ability to grind your way up the chain.
Bingo. If anyone thinks that Scott Walker had something to do with THIS issue, they're too stupid for words. Something like this won't even hit his radar screen unless someone brings it to his radar. Is it political? Sure - but whether the rules were passed by actual lawmakers or whether they were just put in place by the DMV is anyone's guess. The enviroweenies are part of it, but there's another level. Without sounding nutty, the root of the issue is that the automobile is, was, and always has been a tool of individuality and freedom. Build your own car and you take that to the 10th power. There are some in government who are against the automobile primarily because it's easier to plan, direct, and control people's activity if they don't have the ability to get in a car and go whereever the hell they want to. Bottom line is, when you build your own car, there's a good chance that you're offending the average government bureaucrat drone that has never had an individual or entrepreneurial thought in their lives. Hence these issues.
Leaving us alone is not in their creed. See, they are very, very smart people (just ask 'em) who know how to run our lives better than they do.
By the way, the only advice I have for those people (like the guy who spent six years building a '27) who are about to get caught in this deal is to NOT do anything fraudulent; that will make it worse because you WILL get caught. If I remember correctly, Brian Brennan of Street Rodder Magazine spent two years building an incredible '35 Chevy that he couldn't get titled; he eventually sold it on a bill of sale outside California. In Kansas, we're fortunate. The state wants to see receipts and origins, of course, but we can get titles for specialty construction vehicles.
This is the attitude that will cause and require eventual bloodshed..... I am NOT a slave and MY possessions are MINE! More and more of the public are coming to the realization that the "state" feels that they ARE slaves and don't own anything......
We are going though the same thing to some degree in Washington State. While there isn't a big issue building a car using an original frame there is a real big issue with welding up your own frame out of tubing right now. The gist of it here is that while we can walk through inspection using an original frame we have to either have a certified welder weld or inspect and pass a welded tube frame. I haven't heard much on it lately but do know that one guy couldn't get his finished car through inspection last fall due to the change. You have to remember that every one of these anti enthusiast regulations or restrictions usually comes due to someone's fuckup. In this state it was due to sloppy welding on either kit car or hot rod frames breaking. About once every other week we see someone on here or another board who has never welded or had welding training who has either just run out and bought a mig and is ready to start building his own frame with no experience or practice and we all have seen some pretty scabby and suspect welding on rigs at rod trots and some of the slicker and smoother guys tend to grind half of the weld off in order to have a slick an smooth frame.
I used to register old fords for my friends and custermers and would have to go to D.M.V. all the time, There was a 300 lb. cutie there , and I would always bring her a slice of pine-apple cheese cake , man that paperwork would just slide right thrue, and she would tell the right things to say when I was registering a car, you have to grease the wheels man, if you want your shit done.
Their current government is in no way a bunch of greeniacs. They do look a bit like the early years of the Nazi movement. The elimination of labor unions, common civil rights and eventually any opposing party. The voters will be rid of them up there, but the guys they replaced also sucked. The truth is, we as hobbyists have no body we can trust. The gun folks are soon to find the same thing as both parties will be on the "lets re-interpet the 2nd amendment" band wagon. Glass bodied cars aren't a real problem at all. Niether are choppers made of aftermarket parts or home built boats. The masses not understanding the control they must accept from the ruling class is. If you don't believe that, try to run for any office in your area without a parties blessing. We need some good relationships in every state in both parties. The lobbyists are spending huge dollars to eliminate all forms of non-compliance with their for profit ideas.
Vehicle registration is much simpler in Alabama. Any factory produced car built before 1975 does not need a title to be registered, just a bill of sale. I bought my T-Bucket from the guy who built it in Louisiana, and he did have a Louisiana title complete with a VIN number. The car also had a special hot rod license plate. When I registered the car, all I did was to show them the bill of sale. I took a photo of the car with me so I could show them what a roadster looked like. The car is registered as a 1925 Model T, so the taxes and fees for a license are very low. The car isn't anywhere close to a 1925 Model T, but the clerk accepted my bill of sale and explanation and registered the car. There was no inspection of the car required. I wouldn't mind a safety inspection (lights, brakes, etc.), but none is required for any cars here. As you might expect, there are some real beaters on the roads and they probably don't get stopped by the cops unless there is something plainly visible - the safety equipment on my car is better than a lot of the cars I see on the road. I have never been stopped by the cops. I'm glad they don't hassle rodders in this state - at least now.
I'm surprised some Aussies haven't chimed in here. I understand that EVERY phase of construction has to be inspected by Gov. engineer and they have really strong controls over what drives on the public roads. If you want some help, join SEMA - they have been lobbying for fair street rod laws for over 20 years. They just helped Texas rodders get fair titling and safety laws passed. And , friends, Texas has some truly whacked elected officials!
We are having that issue here in Washington. If you weld up your own tube frame you have to either be a certified welder or have a certified welder inspect it and sign off on it. Explained to me by a WSP vehicle inspector as being in reaction to issues with home made frames breaking and causing accidents. We can run and original frame without issues or we can run a frame that was built by a rod shop that has a statement of origin with it and not have a a big issue with it though. We all have seen crap welds and really scary work on cars that someone built. There have been dozens of photos posted on here over the years of welds and construction of that type. But that probably isn't the whole issue. One thing we don't think a whole lot about is where our parts come from when we buy them used. Did that good Ol Boy at the swap meet that had that flathead Merc that we just had to have come by it honestly? Unless you have store reciepts, or copies of doner vehicle titles Can you truthfully say that every part on you vehicle was from a legal source? You most likely bought it honestly but did the guy you bought it from or the guy he bought it from? It's still about us having all of our duck in a row when we build a vehicle from scratch using doner parts. Receipts, bills of sale, copys of doner vehicle titles plus maybe even a photographic record of the build can go a log way when dealing with inspectors and bureaucrats.
I've been thinking about trying for hobby plates before my project is even road worthy, just to get em before the rules really do start changing. As of right now the application process seems pretty straight forward here in Wisconsin, but I have heard that change is in the workings too. My fiance is an environmental lawyer (she still loves old cars and understands the hobby) and she has warned me that restrictions are coming. The hobby plate application does state that all vehicles are subject to state patrol inspection, which is where I worry about trying to get my plates early. A title can be had easy over the counter at the DMV, HOWEVER you can't get specialty plates over the counter, you must send in for them, so bringing cheesecake to the girl behind the counter won't do it for ya here. This is Wisconsin's current application form: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/drivers/forms/mv2388.pdf Anyone in Wisconsin ever been inspected when getting their hobby plates???
I want to inject something here that is a different take so we can have some food for thought. A lot of what we are getting in the line of legislation is because we do not police ourselves. You all have seen some of the hoaky stuff we as a group do. Bogus titles, no documentation on our parts, things that are just unsafe from amature welding to no brakes to you name it. If I recall when the SEMA first came about part of what they did was give us a way to police the industry in order to keep the powers to be from policing the industry. I don't know how many will remember how important it used to be to get an SEMA sticker on the part that you manufactured? It was a form of validation sort of the automotive equivelent of the Good Housekeeping seal of approval. Part of what we need to do in order to not get legislated out of existance is to begine to police ourselves. When it comes time to title a car instead of suggesting that someone buy a title and throw bogus numbers on their car suggest that there may be a more legal way to do it. Keep everything up front and avoid all appearance of evil if you will excuse the bibical referance. When someone is looking to build a suspension or a brake setup for their car suggest good sound practice instead of some bugus crap that someone saw at some junker at a local show that looked cool. This list could go on for hours but you catch my drift right? One thing that makes me think about this is something that one of the fellas mentioned the other day, I don't recall who for sure but one of the fellas on a totally different and unrelated thread mentioned that there were California lawmakers that were car people and members of this board. They are probably not the only govt officials that read the HAMB. When they see us making suggestions to do something that is iffy instead of offering good sound advice or not policing ourselves I am sure that they think well we need a law to govern that. Problem is that most lawmakers don't think about making a law that only covers the bogus but one that covers any contingency so that it cannot be done wrong even by accident. OK once again I am overly wordy, sorry about that. Just food for thought. I'll hand the soapbox over to someone else. Carry on
I'm tryng not to get political but sooner or later we are going to have to organize if we want to continue any rod activity. Here in Pa. we have some very good rod laws, mostly through the actions of our former govenor, who supports rodding, and the work of SEMA. Every few years some numbnuts politicion brings up a ban on modified vehicles. We have to stay ever vigilant or our ability to enjoy our hobby will be over and everybody will be expected to live in the socialist agenda dictated. Not what the founding fathers intended! Unless you want to live under this crap, step up and start bitchen'. My 2 cents!
Koz hard not to sound political when you are talking about legislation that could end our hobby as we know it. One thing to remember is that there has always been talk of someone or something infringing on our right to build and drive hot rods. We forget that it is not a right it is a privelege and we will only keep it if we protect it.
Well said Porknbeaner. My point is if we bury our head in the sand we get what we deserve. Our oponents are very outspoken and militant. If we don't do the same they will win. Our demise is useful to them as it furthers their agenda. Our freedoms are disappearing on a daily basis. We need to be both vigilant and vocal if we wish to continue. I believe we have a resposibility to put safe stuff on the road so as not to infringe on the safety of others. History shows us, when authoritys, with limited knowledge of the product they are regulating, attempt to oversee something they don't understand, it always ends badly. I personally know enough public officials to know they are not superior intelects but it never stops them from imposing whatever they think will further their wants on others. Pa. has some really good rod laws. We are fortunate, but it won't last if we don't keep both eyes open. 'Nuff said.
Jay Leno did an interview with Wisconsin hot rod radio on the topic. I actually found his remarks to be very insightful. You can listen to it here: http://www.wisconsinhotrodradio.com/ scroll to the bottom left of the page and click the link
That cheesecake gets the fatties everytime... lol But all jokes aside this is a real bullsh*t policy.. Whats the difference in a "T" and a cobra kit car or any other open fiberglass car? Or dare I say the "R" word ? Look at all those unsafe pieces of sh*t riding around.... Just my .02
Regardless of what car is involved, you will find that your current situation in the USA is going to end, slowly but surely. The fact is that 99% of politicians are anti modified vehicles, whatever shape or form they are. This happened in New Zealand. A far sighted hotrodder could see that over the next few years the politicians were going to start coming down on modified vehicles, so he set about creating an enforcable code of construction. This was taken up by the NZHRA and the transport authority, and for the last couple of decades has kept the politicians out of hotrodder's hair. I believe what's happening in Wisconsin is a forerunner of things to come for most or all states. The time to act is now while you still have your freedom. I know it's all BS, nanny state, your rights, blah, blah..... but the fact is that it's the way of the world, and the only protection from politicians is to have an organised national body like SEMA, or maybe a whole new one, fighting for you. BTW: some of the pics of bad workmanship that have been posted on the Hamb over the years are exactly the sort of thing that needs to be eliminated.
Actually part of what is happening everywhere stems from a handfull of pro-builders that were registering new cars as original old cars or with original titles. Let me choose a car that I am pretty sure that no one repops yet. Lets assume that I own an all glass or even metal repopped American Bantum Coupe. Now this coupe has a manufactured frame from one of the really cool frame companies and an ultra late model drive train and interior. There is abosutely not a single part on the car that is not new and nothing American Bantum about it other than the shape of the body. But this same car is registered as a '31 American Bantum Coupe. Some wise person notices that the same guy that built this car for me is building a number of other cars for other people on the same premis. Compound the problem by the fact that the builder can't even verify where he got all the parts to build said cars either because of poor record keeping or some other reason. Shazaaam new cars that donot have to meet federal regulation because of the way that they are registered and aside from that some of the parts may or may not be stolen because we cannot verify how the builder came into possesion of these parts. All at once we need to make sure that no one does this ever again so we pop out a new bit of legislation banning the manufacture of repop cars all together. Of course those banned repop cars would be hot rod looking cars primarily because this group of people has never really had a good reputation. This legislation will eventually trickle down to all custom built cars not just the repops because it is too easy to disguise a repop car to look like a custom built and or modified original. It is also far easier to ban something than it is to come up with a set of rules that cover a legitimately built and registered car. I still believe that we cannot hang it on the law makers, they just make laws. They are not really expected to know anything at all about our hobby, why should they? If we want to stay afloat we need to bail out the water in the boat. More than that we need to only bail the bad water and keep the good water so we don't just stay afloat but we also don't die of thirst.
P'n'B mentioned something none of us seem to have paid attention to in his last post. "People are building new cars that dont't have to meet federal regulations". All these glass cars and piles of parts we make into hot rods and then title shadily with old titles and stamped imaginary numbers are sidestepping taxes and regulations. That is why this is getting attention in the legislature. We need to be harder on ourselves than anyone else. Title it right, jump through the hoops, get written receipts at the swap, and do your due diligence before you get to far in your project. Don't sell old titles to folks. Point is, we can't stop uncle sam from wanting to make sure we are safe and following rules, because the soccor mom next door to you and the fancy business man down the block are concerned and asking qustions about how safe your old iron is. People outside the hobby want the dmv to watch us so they feel safe, and there are more "regular" people than hot rodders, so legislatures will listen to them.
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